85 replies to this topic

[Deceptor]

I recall, in the poorly executed yet still lore-viable MW 4 series, Doube heatsinks actually weigh more... idk I'm just grasping at hairs. Keep the Ideas coming, they said...

[chaz706]

Deceptor, on 28 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I recall, in the poorly executed yet still lore-viable MW 4 series, Doube heatsinks actually weigh more... idk I'm just grasping at hairs. Keep the Ideas coming, they said...

I don't think you had the option to install double heat sinks in MW4.

Having them weigh more would also definitely remove the entire purpose of calling them double heat sinks.

[Deceptor]

It said in the mouse over on the heatsink dial something to the effect of, "increases the number of doubled heatsinks installed on your mech," and each dial-up costed 1 ton. I know, it's just dastardly, but there it is...

[chaz706]

What the?

**checks**

Dastardly indeed. Never paid attention to that tidbit.

[Acrius]

If most Mechs are fine when you use DHS, you should leave them as is and look at a way to provent the problem from happening.

Really you are just talking about a boating problem. The hard point system is one way the game is trying to address this kind of problem.

What if DHS cost you hard points (mybe energy specifically)? Maybe a standard engine would use 2 center torso energy hard points, and a XL was 1 right torso, 1 center torso, and 1 left torso. Of course hard points would need to be adjusted to this.

[CCC Dober]

DHS are a complete non-issue IMO.

Two reasons for that:
1. Mech/variant viability -> certain Mechs absolutely depend on DHS. Take them away or gimp them practically kills the Mechs/variants.
2. Options -> on some configs it is preferable to run SHS instead of DHS because crits are scarce. DHS are a must for hot Mechs.

I am voting against messing with DHS even further. They got screwed already by the fact that heat dissipation lags quite a lot, as evidenced in the videos. By the time they start to work properly, some weapons are ready to fire again. None of that stuff happened in TT. I rest my case.

[Deedsie]

I don't think double heat sink mountings should deviate from the old tabletop rules.

[chaz706]

CCC Dober, on 29 July 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

DHS are a complete non-issue IMO.

Two reasons for that:
1. Mech/variant viability -> certain Mechs absolutely depend on DHS. Take them away or gimp them practically kills the Mechs/variants.
2. Options -> on some configs it is preferable to run SHS instead of DHS because crits are scarce. DHS are a must for hot Mechs.

I am voting against messing with DHS even further. They got screwed already by the fact that heat dissipation lags quite a lot, as evidenced in the videos. By the time they start to work properly, some weapons are ready to fire again. None of that stuff happened in TT. I rest my case.

You are right sir. I abandon my previous position.

[Deceptor]

After contemplating this further, I feel the best plan of action would be to wait and see how the standard system plays out before making any changes.

[Protection]

Deceptor, on 29 July 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

After contemplating this further, I feel the best plan of action would be to wait and see how the standard system plays out before making any changes.

Gaze into my crystal ball:

Large XL Engines and Medium Pulse Laser boating become twice as effective.

[Deceptor]

Quote

Gaze into my crystal ball:

Large XL Engines and Medium Pulse Laser boating become twice as effective.

Sweet! let's all the vets run with it and build our empires before the noobs find out!

[ExAstris]

VanillaG, on 26 July 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

• Standard Engine with Standard Heatsinks - same as what is currently in TT
  
• Standard Engine with Double Heatsinks - Same weight as standard but +2 additional criticals in CT and +1 criticals in LT and RT. You can still run around with both side torsos destroyed
  
• XL Engine with Standard Heatsinks - same as what is currently in TT
  
• XL Engine with Double Heatsinks - same weight as XL engine but +2 additional criticals to LT and RT because CT is already filled by XL engine.

Both XL Engines and Double Heatsinks are trading space for weight so when you equip both, you lose a lot of critical space. While it is possible to get the advantage of both if you REALLY wanted them, it makes most people choose between either DHS or XL Engine. Then they can choose between FF or Endosteel for the other upgrade.

This idea is on the right track. An actual cost/benefit system for the upgrade to DHS with meaningful differences that would force more than just a few niche designs off their DHS.

Also, dismissal of suggestions in this thread for actual cost/benefit choice with respect to DHS by noting the suggested drawbacks of any particular suggestion to break cannon mech designs is a terrible counter argument.

This is a reinvisionment of battletech/mechwarrior. Intermech datalinks with various level of target overlay information having direct effect on pilot tactical awareness and (at least for LRM's) weapon performance, in conjunction with the various advantages of movement/artillery/vision-modes/etc that are granted by the entirely new module system are entirely new additions to a universe that clearly did not have them previously, and in some cases directly contradict the operation of previous technology pieces (scout suite advantages void of Beagle Active Probes, commander modules required to call for Satellite sweeps or to call in artillery strikes).

Breaking a few old-canon designs is a far smaller infraction upon canon than the module system, hardpoint restrictions, or innevitable changes to weapon behavior/stats and provides clear and obvious benefits to improve gameplay, player choice, and balance.

[Rhyshaelkan]

Make them hellishly expensive to buy and repair. This serves in two ways. Repair costs will make people buy premium to have enough c-bills to keep their 'mech running. This also works for the eventual introduction of the Clans. Sure Clan 'mechs are powerful, but repair costs should stymie them something terrible. I do mean to the point that even with a flawless victory you will still not have enough Cbills to repair your 'mech. Not without a premium account.

Not turning the game into pay to win, as everyone should run premium IMO. Premium is not "haha I can dump $300 into the game and can totally pwnzer MWO." Premium still forces you to fight smart and win your engagements to get your bonus cash.

As a Clan player you might be forced to run a "second-line" 'mech to save up enough cbills to repair your "front-line" 'mech.

As an IS player you will have to save up your cbills to buy Black Market weapons to install in your 'mech. However with repair costs so high, you might not be able to run at the top of your game consistently.

Sorry to go off topic with Clan stuff, but it is all part and parcel to me. Seeking to balance it all out.

"But the Clans do not use cbills."

Symantics. Money is a medium for exchange. Whether you want to call them Kerenskys, or credits, nothing is free. It takes time, energy, and resources to produce items.

[CocoaJin]

I have to admit that I tend to be a canon *****, but sometimes im willing to deviate for maintaining balance where canon has ignored certain natural laws...thus causing inbalances.

Im willing to investigate possible issues of imbalance with double-heat sinks, and would be open to discussing an adjustment in game that follows natural principles. It seems reasonable to discuss draw-backs to DHS, more volume/hardpoint slot requirements, an increase over current weight specs, increase fragility of the cooling system when hit, etc, etc.

Maybe DHS should use up 2.5- 3x times the space as a single. Maybe they DHS might be required to be more exposed outside armor, etc, etc, you get the idea how this can be justifed/explained.

[WardenWolf]

Okay, I am necroing this because I hadn't realized folks had continued to post on it weeks after I started it - sorry!

In canon, a DHS takes up three times the space of a single (3 crits vs 1) but weighs the same (both are 1 ton) and dissipates twice the heat. To get 2 heat dissipation, then, you had the following options:

2 single heatsinks = 2 crits and 2 tons (less space, but more weight)
1 double heatsink = 3 crits and 1 ton (less tonnage, but more space)

That in and of itself is balanced, but when you made the switch all of the heatsinks in your engine (10 by default, plus room for more without adding to the crits used if you had an engine rating of 275 or higher) also get doubled. This is basically a bunch of 'free' heat dissipation, without any added cost to tonnage or crits... and *that* is what concerns me about balance.

Now, some things to keep in mind:

- Certain canon mech variants needed DHS to work properly. This I understand and appreciate.
- Pretty much all Clan mechs used DHS, because theirs took up only 2 crits instead of three... meaning there was no advantage to single heatsinks on the Clan side.

Now the only reason I am concerned about DHS is that we can customize mechs. If certain variants had them and others didn't, and we just had to live with it, then fine! But because we can customize any mech (so far as the Devs have indicated) to have XL engines, or DHS, etc - this becomes a problem... and here is why:

I have yet to find a mech configuration where single heatsinks are better than doubles. I have played around with lots of options in online configuration tools, and in some it is close... but in the end the extra engine heatsinks always seem to throw the DHS equipped mech into the lead (in terms of heat dissipation / weight comparison) no matter how they are decked out with weapons. Only mechs that produce little / no heat (Gauss rifle designs) might not care either way, but even there the DHS design would be 'better' if you ran into an enemy mech with flamers.

If someone can show a reasonable mech design where that is not the case, please share!

Now if it is true that virtually every possible mech would be better off with DHS than singles, then it is an automatic advantage in battle to the person able to run duals. That further means that it will be a race to get them in your mechs, and people would be silly to run without them.

This direct TT copy approach can only be balanced by making them so expensive they are dangerous to risk in battle... but then that gives an edge to players with premium accounts who can afford more because they make more income all the time. It isn't explicitly P2W, but it borders on it.

So, because of that I was suggesting that the engines themselves don't need to include doubled heatsinks. That was my original idea, which seems to have been lost in the discussion along the way.

[Davison]

*facedesk* Am I the only person to have slapped a Mech design together in the last twenty or so years using the 'old', not-done-for-you-by-the-computer Battletech rules? Seriously, go do so, then you'll stop whining about everything being unfair. It balances. Try mounting ferro-fibrous, an XL engine, endo-steel, enough double heat sinks to dissipate ALL the heat from advanced weapons such as ER PPC's and heavy autocannons, and still have enough critical space left in a big mech for it all. Guess what Amus... You cant. The 'balance' comes from the system itself, which doesn't let you do everything because of the simple fact it DOESN'T FIT. All those nifty materials and enhancements are bulky in the extreme.

Sure, Clantech aleviates this somewhat, but it's got its limits too. Look at your vaunted Mad Cat (Timber Wolf) that everyone seems to be throwing a tantrum over wanting. Seriously, its not that great. Why? It can't handle its heat load that well, even with double heat sinks. Why? Because all those 'OP' Clantech weapons generate it like a newborn filling his diaper. As for the overall 'OP' issue of double heat sinks, how are they OP? You can hardly put them anywhere and still have space left over for weapons and other advanced material. IS models dont even fit in the legs, being too bulky. Sure, fitting a bigger engine lets you have more 'heat sinks' (which are actually a completely separate regenerative cooling system integral to the engine) before they take up criticals, but why penalize someone for using a tradeoff? Sure, you get a better integral cooling system, but in bigger mechs, you take a serious hit in terms of being able to actually expand it to handle full on alpha strikes, simply because you cant mount them anywhere effectively... And dont even think about survivability...

Your armor gets breached with an advanced tech design using an XL engine and double heat sinks, you're going to start losing systems FAST. Simply because they are bulkier and 'easier' to hit, because of the sheer number of criticals they take up.

On a final note... Really, folks... It's Mechwarrior, not WoW. It's been about as balanced as it was ever intended to be from the get go. Thumping the Balance Book on every single game out there really gets old after awhile. I see it in RTS, I see it in FPS, I see it now in MWO. It is what it is, and should be left that way. Why? Because it works. And it works well. It always has.

Thank you and have a nice day. (No, seriously. Have a good one.)

[HC Harlequin]

Triple Strength Myomers, double axes on an Atlas and 5 jump jets.. MMMMMMMM

[Protection]

HC Harlequin, on 30 September 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Triple Strength Myomers, double axes on an Atlas and 5 jump jets.. MMMMMMMM

You necroed this month-dead thread for that?

[Justin Xang Allard]

Rhyshaelkan, on 20 July 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

IS DHSs are a slippery slope. Add them to your 'mech if you like. Once you get past the ones held by the engine, they rapidly eat up criticals. Keeping you from using other weight saving tech like FF ES and XL.

The same goes for XL Engines. Use them if you like, but their fragility will be a slap in the face to some.

IS "high tech" is much more balanced than Clan tech.

yep should be done just like in the game .......

[saber15]

MWLL keeps dual heatsinks from being truly ridiculous by limiting the engine heatsinks to single heatsinks.

So if you have a Vulture with dual heatsinks, the ten (non-listed) heatsinks it's given by the reactor are standard heatsinks, while additional heatsinks are the duals that you pay tonnage (and c-bills) for.