47 replies to this topic

[naterist]

In the roundtable thread, someone half jokingly said we could at 2 servers, 1 lore, and 1 hardcore mode. This evolved until we decided that a hardcore section of faction warfare with custom mechlab should exist for meta/comp guys, and 1 filled with stock mechs and a more rp aspect. We couldnt really nail anything down that got a consensus, so i want to rebring this up here.

To emphasize that i want a genuine brainstorm from everyone, ill add my idea in a second post. If you hate my solution and have a better method, feel free to post it, or, feel free to offer minor tweaks or ideas for of someone elses idea that theyve posted.

edit;i am not immediatly suggesting splitting the ques. dont read this and freak about it. i have a more inclusive solution down below. if someone pitches an idea that fixes que and splits the bukkits without ruining po, go ahead and post it.

also, love that someone was trying to shoot the idea down before id even posted my idea in a fleshed out way. gotta love the positive atmosphere in the community.

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 02:42 AM.

[Deathlike]

Right now we already have problems with the current population of FW as it is.

Splitting into multiple servers/buckets only amplifies the issue.

What needs to be done is addressing some of the core problems with FW (like having a purpose) and that also includes addressing "Invasion" mode (and the related maps).

Edited by Deathlike, 04 February 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[naterist]

So, my idea is that everyone starts off in same tech battles. Your faction has a set of 3(or 2 for the clans) allies that are randomly selected by pgi each week. Mercs get to choose which of the 4 'bukkits' they want to be in.

For the same tech conflicts only, enforced stock mech mode. This makes sense lore wise, as many people in house militaries cant afford to customize a mech. On the clan front, they have enforced stock mechs as these players represent the freebirth and solohma units that stay behind to fight in the occupation zone, and are not frontline galaxies.

Once a player gains a certain level, and is in a 12 man unit, he is, lore wise, 'sent on temporary placement orders to the star league' or 'transfered to a frontline unit' to fight matches. These matches, between the star league and the clans frontlines, have mechlab access, and are exclusively 12v12. This system also can work the way phil explained in the last ngng broadcast, with preset games between 2 units at a certain, scheduled time, with X amount of prewarning and strat sessions, which makes sense because the clan IS war is the big leagues, and the other engagements are the background conflicts. After the is v clan battles are over, they can rejoin stock mech same tech mode.


Someones probably asking, why make stockmode same tech only? Because can you image a stock atlas with single heatsinks is viable against a kodiak? (And dont give me that (atlas cant even do it normally stuff, single heatsinks and lrm's on an assault. Let it sink in, fun against other stock IS mechs, not against a dual lbx 20 kodiak 3.

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[Deathlike]

I still don't think stock mode is as popular as people think.

It would probably cull over 50% of the groups that play FP as currently constituted.

So, no.

Having a stock mode option for FP would be akin to 12-mans only queue when it existed once upon a time. It would be really empty bucket.

You know you have to design the mode to be popular over a 24-hour span. There's a reason why stock matches happen at a specified date and time.

Also, FP doesn't even do interfaction fights currently (IS vs IS and Clan vs Clans). It was rare that units/factions did this (outside of the purple chicken Marik-Kurita wars in Phase 1).

Edited by Deathlike, 04 February 2017 - 12:43 AM.

[naterist]

Deathlike, on 04 February 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

I still don't think stock mode is as popular as people think.

It would probably cull over 50% of the groups that play FP as currently constituted.

So, no.

Having a stock mode option for FP would be akin to 12-mans only queue when it existed once upon a time. It would be really empty bucket.

You know you have to design the mode to be popular over a 24-hour span. There's a reason why stock matches happen at a specified date and time.

Also, FP doesn't even do interfaction fights currently (IS vs IS and Clan vs Clans). It was rare that units/factions did this (outside of the purple chicken Marik-Kurita wars in Phase 1).

considering most of the people playing right now are either lore (and a subset insists on only stock mode anyways) enthusiasts, or good enough to be instantly placed in the star league/invasion force, i dont see the real effect on the pupulation. and i think it would give it that spark. as for it being reminiscent of splitting into 12 man ques, it is to a degree. really it gives a way to cater to the 2 types of endgame people want. 1/2 seem to want a fw with a comp feel (basically comp dressed up in lore) and some want just a cool lore experience. this gives both their desired endgame, without destroying ques drastically, and everyone has access to sametech/stock que, but it throws in heavy lore while also giving the comp guys a preassure valve for them to go find their great fights in, were they dont have to be 'bored' (as they proclaim to be) of seal clubbing. keep them in the same que exclusively with the baby seals and we run into problems, remove the seals, and pop will be so low well HAVE to schedule matches, or wait hours to find one.

therefore, a compromise system.

what ideas do you have? or are you just one of those guys running around saying everythings crap without contributing?

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 12:51 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

Another pie in the sky idea, PGI wont do a server for stock mode. If you want to play stock mode you have private lobbies. Start thinking in terms of reality for once.

[justcallme A S H]

Deathlike, on 04 February 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

Right now we already have problems with the current population of FW as it is.

Splitting into multiple servers/buckets only amplifies the issue.

What needs to be done is addressing some of the core problems with FW (like having a purpose) and that also includes addressing "Invasion" mode (and the related maps).

Correct.

Plus some "LORE" builds actually fit meta. Some miss the boat entirely.

I agree, it won't work because of population. And also because of outright meta vs non-meta balance.

[naterist]

i feel like carl and ash never leave this forum, like, even midgame between respawns yall are alt tabbing over to hop on here and say somethings a bad idea.

at this point, if i hear you say something negative, it isnt even a thing. thats just how you communicate i think.

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 01:03 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

2 monitors so no alt tabbing needed ;p

[naterist]

Carl Vickers, on 04 February 2017 - 01:04 AM, said:

2 monitors so no alt tabbing needed ;p

do you have a different beep for every type of thread you think you need to go crush? lol. 2 beeps is a creative idea, 1 for just general happiness that must be crushed?

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

therefore, a compromise system.

what ideas do you have? or are you just one of those guys running around saying everythings crap without contributing?

I'm just telling you what really won't work. I'm not saying it can't work necessarily (although in your examples, they are far away from being workable, that's for sure).

I'm just here to tell you what reality says based on prior experience.

The ideas you have "sounds good on paper", but experience has showed otherwise. It boils down to "it would be a waste of PGI's time to consider it". I'm explicitly using examples that occur and have occurred with this game.

justcallme A S H, on 04 February 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

Correct.

Plus some "LORE" builds actually fit meta. Some miss the boat entirely.

I agree, it won't work because of population. And also because of outright meta vs non-meta balance.

There are "meta" stock mechs in the game. People keep thinking stock would avoid such nonsense, but literally is a meta in stock matches that existed in stock leagues of previous MW games.

[Clownwarlord]

Nope because comp meta ******.

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

do you have a different beep for every type of thread you think you need to go crush? lol. 2 beeps is a creative idea, 1 for just general happiness that must be crushed?

Nope, bad idea is bad, that all, you seem to come up with a few so looking for posts from you is pretty simple ;p

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 01:02 AM, said:

i feel like carl and ash never leave this forum, like, even midgame between respawns yall are alt tabbing over to hop on here and say somethings a bad idea.

at this point, if i hear you say something negative, it isnt even a thing. thats just how you communicate i think.

BTW, we didnt start out as negative, just happens when you can only say no to bad idea's for the 800th time. No patience for bad idea's.

Think in terms of reality.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 04 February 2017 - 01:23 AM.

[naterist]

ok, well now youve said you dont like stock mode. cool. anyone else got anything to contribute?

[justcallme A S H]

Carl Vickers, on 04 February 2017 - 01:04 AM, said:

2 monitors so no alt tabbing needed ;p

LOL.

I alt-tab, but the 90% of games are so easy I can afford to type for 2-3mins and go back to the game and still crank 2k dmg

[naterist]

Deathlike, on 04 February 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

I'm just telling you what really won't work. I'm not saying it can't work necessarily (although in your examples, they are far away from being workable, that's for sure).

I'm just here to tell you what reality says based on prior experience.

The ideas you have "sounds good on paper", but experience has showed otherwise. It boils down to "it would be a waste of PGI's time to consider it". I'm explicitly using examples that occur and have occurred with this game.





There are "meta" stock mechs in the game. People keep thinking stock would avoid such nonsense, but literally is a meta in stock matches that existed in stock leagues of previous MW games.

yes, but finding that meta doesnt require you to make mistakes in the mechlab till you eventually figure it out a long way from now. part of the problem is people making mistakes in the mechlab. this removes that possibility until they are in a unit that is good enough (and presumably capable of teaching unit members how to) use the mechlab in a way that doesnt leave you with one of every type of laser available. one aspect that is harming newbs completely thrown out the window in a que that is more geared toward the new and the pug. simplified mwo is what stock mechs are really. meta or not.

special, scheduled fw matches leave the other side of faction warfare, the competative groups, a place to go in a way that is geared to give them the lowest que time possible (prearranged games so just plug in and go at the assigned time) and the baby seals, who are the majority of the playerbase in fw (yes they are, there just arent enough big units routinely interested) get the focus in pick up games.

this notion that there will be a competent, 12 man unit there to face every 12 man unit group in faction warfare for over 50% of the matches you play is ludicrous, we dont have the players who are both at that level and interested, so some battles planned and all the others pug pickup games make sense. the stock mech mode is to help differentiate the two types of que and to remove one of the most difficult things to learn how to use in mwo for new people, the mechlab.








one person mentioned that the main focus is clan v is, and even in previous phases, inter tech fights were rare. this is true, but with a timeline shift to 3068, this doesnt stay true lore wise. lore wise, it was every culture to itself. is dealt with is stuff, and clans dealt with clan stuff, while the best on both sides kinda held each other at a stalemate, with rare forays across the borders by the falcons mainly. and those clans that did attack and the IS assigned to hold them off were usually the best each siode could throw at each other, while everyone else in the background at home kept up the interfaction wars and kept the different house on house fights and clan on clan fights goin.

in addition, i remember same tech fights in 3.0 to be prime locations for units to take newer people for in game trainings, which is exactly what this functions as, just wrapped up in lore to make it fun and not degrading to the players ego.

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 01:58 AM.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

yes, but finding that meta doesnt require you to make mistakes in the mechlab till you eventually figure it out a long way from now. part of the problem is people making mistakes in the mechlab. this removes that possibility until they are in a unit that is good enough (and presumably capable of teaching unit members how to) use the mechlab in a way that doesnt leave you with one of every type of laser available. one aspect that is harming newbs completely thrown out the window in a que that is more geared toward the new and the pug. simplified mwo is what stock mechs are really. meta or not.

There was a legitimate thought to have new players play in a stock only queue... if only to mitigate the effect of other Tier 4 or 5 players having customized builds vs the actual new players. It would still be massively flawed however because someone that would have gotten their first Clan mech would have an overwhelming advantage over something with their first IS mech. So, it's not something you could easily resolve on its own merits (even people doing stock in private matches understand they have to set rules there for that reason alone).

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special, scheduled fw matches leave the other side of faction warfare, the competative groups, a place to go in a way that is geared to give them the lowest que time possible (prearranged games so just plug in and go at the assigned time) and the baby seals, who are the majority of the playerbase in fw (yes they are, there just arent enough big units routinely interested) get the focus in pick up games.

The original FP plans seemed to fall along those lines, but outside of solo "wanting in", it didn't seem to go further from the idea phase. Technically you could do something like that, but it have to be hashed out much better than what PGI did for CW on the whole.

A lot of previous MW games had a certain level of control through leagues to drop in matches that allowed people to bid (like through a batchall) for both sides. It was great, but consider that MWO doesn't allow gaining C-bills during private matches... I wouldn't see people wanting to do it "for free" unless they are making it back in C-bills (other games didn't have any sort of buy in restrictions like MWO does for private lobbies), and that in some ways may be harder to deal with.

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this notion that there will be a competent, 12 man unit there to face every 12 man unit group in faction warfare for over 50% of the matches you play is ludicrous, we dont have the players who are both at that level and interested, so some battles planned and all the others pug pickup games make sense. the stock mech mode is to help differentiate the two types of que and to remove one of the most difficult things to learn how to use in mwo for new people, the mechlab.

No... the mechlab is actually the easiest thing to deal with in the game. The question is whether or not you want to listen to other people. People often join units to learn and grow... and while not everyone is willing to join units (for whatever the reason), the biggest difference for an actual player on their growth is honestly whether or not they are willing to get better AND listen to people that have a clue. That's the difference honestly.

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one person mentioned that the main focus is clan v is, and even in previous phases, inter tech fights were rare. this is true, but with a timeline shift to 3068, this doesnt stay true lore wise. lore wise, it was every culture to itself. is dealt with is stuff, and clans dealt with clan stuff, while the best on both sides kinda held each other at a stalemate, with rare forays across the borders by the falcons mainly. and those clans that did attack and the IS assigned to hold them off were usually the best each siode could throw at each other, while everyone else in the background at home kept up the interfaction wars and kept the different house on house fights and clan on clan fights goin.

I don't care that much about lore. I'm fairly sure lore elements would have had plenty of interfaction fighting (it's kinda natural). I'm saying on a more practical manner that it wasn't popular in this game from Phase 1 to Phase 3 when attacking other factions was an option (although Liao for the most part was forced to do that - in a sense, some people/units that weren't "good enough" to fight a Clan offensive stayed in some factions that would avoid "that level of difficulty").

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in addition, i remember same tech fights in 3.0 to be prime locations for units to take newer people for in game trainings, which is exactly what this functions as, just wrapped up in lore to make it fun and not degrading to the players ego.

It's one thing to want lore elements... but to build a mode around them is not really a good idea. You need to develop modes about actual gameplay, and then add the lore elements around that instead.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 04 February 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

You need to develop modes about actual gameplay, and then add the lore elements around that instead.

Wouldn't that be great?!
Instead we get a mode advertised as being lore immersive end game experience, etc., but with a game play experience that is in fact a team based arena shooter wherein all aspects of that advertised immersive lore being wholly irrelevant.

Go watch the original CW presentation video...it was ALL about lore and immersion and the look and feel of the game with very little game play illustrated or emphasized. Then the original CW with the same few maps of gates and gun, over and over. Nothing remotely like what was advertised. No lore or immersion in sight.

Then Phase 3 with its return to "lore" and "immersion" by giving us the long tom and scouting, except in scouting you didn't scout anything...at all; and the long tom was not a big gun but a nuclear strike...both about as far away from lore as possible and poor game design aspects to boot.

Now we are at the 4.1 version wherein they are STILL using the same broken game model as the original Phase 1, but shoving QP maps and modes into it -maps and modes of an aspect of the game that PGI once identified as "a placeholder".

Yep we now have end game content based on a CW model that PGI admits is broken (see past round table discussions and Russ own comments) with placeholder content shoved in to give it a bit of variety. Think about that. Years of development and this is where we are at. And yes some around here still think that lore should be more significant! Are you kidding me?! I'm still waiting for them to "develop modes about actual game play"! Lore can wait.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 05 February 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Wouldn't that be great?!
Instead we get a mode advertised as being lore immersive end game experience, etc., but with a game play experience that is in fact a team based arena shooter wherein all aspects of that advertised immersive lore being wholly irrelevant.

Go watch the original CW presentation video...it was ALL about lore and immersion and the look and feel of the game with very little game play illustrated or emphasized. Then the original CW with the same few maps of gates and gun, over and over. Nothing remotely like what was advertised. No lore or immersion in sight.

Then Phase 3 with its return to "lore" and "immersion" by giving us the long tom and scouting, except in scouting you didn't scout anything...at all; and the long tom was not a big gun but a nuclear strike...both about as far away from lore as possible and poor game design aspects to boot.

Now we are at the 4.1 version wherein they are STILL using the same broken game model as the original Phase 1, but shoving QP maps and modes into it -maps and modes of an aspect of the game that PGI once identified as "a placeholder".

Yep we now have end game content based on a CW model that PGI admits is broken (see past round table discussions and Russ own comments) with placeholder content shoved in to give it a bit of variety. Think about that. Years of development and this is where we are at. And yes some around here still think that lore should be more significant! Are you kidding me?! I'm still waiting for them to "develop modes about actual game play"! Lore can wait.

You know you're asking for more than minimally viable around here?

That's Lostech bro.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 February 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[KingCobra]

If there was a stock mode it should be a game mode one of the biggest mistakes PGI made was taking away the check box options for game modes.

Stock game mode could have been a viable game mode to check and play as well as the other current game modes we have now.

Right now the stupid map mini game needs to be dumped and go back to random map selections and bring back the check box game mode selection UI then yes stock mode would work for me and possibly others as well to play.