54 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

STD BushWhackers with SRM's, MG's and flamers make great scouts.

[meteorol]

Didn't buy it because it screamed "mediocre" on paper. Only played against it in scouting, killed like 30 or something like that.

It really seem to go down like granny with a femoral neck fracture once you are focusing it. If it doesn't move like a snail and has some firepower, it's pretty easy to focus out one side torso, guaranteed xl. If it moves like a snail, people most often stripped leg armor aswell to make room for the negligible firepower they carry, resulting in very quick and clean double leg kills.

All in all, it doesn't seem like too much of a threat. Solid medium, not really terrible, not outstandingly good, won't have much impact.

[Equalizer]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 February 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

Cool story.

I'll keep running XLs, and you keep clinging to your beliefs. I survived 4 years of that nonsense with the Centurion, I reckon I'll do OK here.

Can't really express how much I agree with this. I could never understand the vehemence against XL engines on certain mechs in these forums - I've been using them on pretty much everything, except:

Atlas
Stalker
Awesome (8Q)
Hunchback
Crab (when boating MPL)

I currently own exactly 200 different mechs, and only about 10-12 of them run STD. To me, the pros of a XL vastly outweigh the insta-death ST nuisance. Besides, many mechs are pretty useless when they lose a ST, so in my eyes this is very similar to death.

[Bishop Steiner]

Equalizer, on 05 February 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Can't really express how much I agree with this. I could never understand the vehemence against XL engines on certain mechs in these forums - I've been using them on pretty much everything, except:

Atlas
Stalker
Awesome (8Q)
Hunchback
Crab (when boating MPL)

I currently own exactly 200 different mechs, and only about 10-12 of them run STD. To me, the pros of a XL vastly outweigh the insta-death ST nuisance. Besides, many mechs are pretty useless when they lose a ST, so in my eyes this is very similar to death.

Yeah, those are pretty much the totality of my XL exempt list, also. I have the odd variant of one chassis or another without one, more out of build diversity desire than need, usually, but it's still laughable how many people claim you need a STD for a Cent. I don't deny that a STD adds "tankiness" to any build. But sometimes, the raw damage absorption is not as useful as the speed to avoid being focused as easily, and to twist and shake damage, or the firepower to end the engagement faster, and thus reduce incoming damage.

Sometimes people get so one dimensional in their thinking they totally refuse to grasp those other factors. Heck, most of my Mechs die due to ST destruction... but as long as I live more than I die, and I kill more than I am killed.... I am going to say that it's worth packing the XL. Two of my Three BSW variants do just that, with the third just below even on KDR tradeoffs, but finally improving due to finding a build that I like on it. And all of XLs.

I've tried STD builds and you lose or tradeoff too much, IMO, to be worth it. Yes, you will get flanked and ambushed on occasion. But if you have good tactical awareness, that will be the exception, not the norm (as a guy with over 15k drops in Mediums, I'm pretty used to having to keep my head on a swivel, as nobody is more exposed than an IS Medium).

[Sigmar Sich]

I enjoyed Bushwacker. But i think i'll wait with it untill new tech - i want MRMs in left arm, badly. For challenge i used dual AC/10 (it's a murderer), triple AC/2 (like hammering nails) and LB10+4*SRM2 (brawling SRM-machinegun - great fun, but i think Bushwacker is much better for ranged engagements). Stripped them all after i got into top 75 for sure (actually disappointing, no reason to go further, since there are no rewards. I remember in previous challenges they were better than just one cockpit item per model) - no matter how effective they are, such primitive builds bore me terribly (not 4*SRM2 build, it's fun, but wrong mech, i think). So i decided to wait till summer, when we get new tech. I need to play other mechs for now anyway (isn't it a perfect time to level a Victor? )

P.S. i hate where 3rd machinegun placed on X1, and size of second torso launcher on S2.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 05 February 2017 - 05:56 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 February 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

I don't feel any need to waste time "refuting your point". My play in it has done that enough for my satisfaction. Cling to your slow STD builds all you like.

So, you saying you don't want to waste time to 'refuting' my point, then why are you even bringing XL Centurion?

And you really do not know about my playstyle, and saying I am with 'slow' STD build.


Let me give you some news for you. Most of the time, I play IS mechs with XL engines... because I am an light mech user.


Yes, an endangered species. About as mythical as unicorn in the forest. I am so used to the dangers of the IS XL engines, and know how to get around it.


However, I do not have such strong mental strength to say "IS XL engine is fine" with the straight face. The gap between the difficulty of killing Clan Assault mech and IS Assault mech as an light mech is very, very huge. Yeah, with backstabbing, it is kind of fair, but when brawling happens and everyone tries to exploit others' weaknesses, the glaring issues of IS XL come into play.

I mean, high speed and damage hardly matter when you die just as fast.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 05 February 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 05 February 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

So, you saying you don't want to waste time to 'refuting' my point, then why are you even bringing XL Centurion?

And you really do not know about my playstyle, and saying I am with 'slow' STD build.


Let me give you some news for you. Most of the time, I play IS mechs with XL engines... because I am an light mech user.


Yes, an endangered species. About as mythical as unicorn in the forest. I am so used to the dangers of the IS XL engines, and know how to get around it.


However, I do not have such strong mental strength to say "IS XL engine is fine" with the straight face. The gap between the difficulty of killing Clan Assault mech and IS Assault mech as an light mech is very, very huge. Yeah, with backstabbing, it is kind of fair, but when brawling happens and everyone tries to exploit others' weaknesses, the glaring issues of IS XL come into play.

I mean, high speed and damage hardly matter when you die just as fast.

Again. Cool story. Not supported by my own results. You want to keep hollering about BSWs being XL death traps, feel free.... But do it somewhere else. You said your piece, I disagree, and at this point there is nothing more to be said. Just because your are unable to do something is not the same as it being undoable. Again, enjoy your STD Wacker, but stop hijacking my topic to try to cram your opinion down everyone else's throat.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 February 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I l've had good luck with 2 AC10s and 2 MLs on an XL270. I also like the 3 AC5 build.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 February 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

I l've had good luck with 2 AC10s and 2 MLs on an XL270. I also like the 3 AC5 build.

Impossible. Because Lighthouse can't do it, so it can't be done. He's a light pilot, don't ya know?

[Composite Armour]

I seem to have more luck with LBX-10s than AC10s, is there any trick to using the bog-standard AC10?

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Again. Cool story. Not supported by my own results. You want to keep hollering about BSWs being XL death traps, feel free.... But do it somewhere else. You said your piece, I disagree, and at this point there is nothing more to be said. Just because your are unable to do something is not the same as it being undoable. Again, enjoy your STD Wacker, but stop hijacking my topic to try to cram your opinion down everyone else's throat.

No way! I mean, you made this thread in the first place, obviously trying to get comments from people who read this forum. There is no such thing as "hijacking" when this forum is moderated by PGI and its appointed staff. You can always put me on the ignore list (wait, does this forum actually support ignore list?) if you don't like. Or just actually stop posting responses if you really have "nothing more to be said."

You know, you have to expect these responses when you post a thought that is far from reality.

[Sunstruck]

I like the Bushwackers too, the reinforcement pack is good. It definetly has its own space where only it can do certain builds out of all the current IS mediums. I like running 2UAC5 and 2SRM6, or 3AC2 2MedLaser. The P2 is kind of like a Crab, I have 3 ERLL on mine but 2LPL, 2MPL works good on it too. The only one I'm not really into is the S2.

You could run a standard on it especially the P2, but it can spread damage if your facing directly at the enemy good enough to use XLs.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 05 February 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

No way! I mean, you made this thread in the first place, obviously trying to get comments from people who read this forum. There is no such thing as "hijacking" when this forum is moderated by PGI and its appointed staff. You can always put me on the ignore list (wait, does this forum actually support ignore list?) if you don't like. Or just actually stop posting responses if you really have "nothing more to be said."

You know, you have to expect these responses when you post a thought that is far from reality.

And yet the majority of posters are disagreeing with you. Go figure. Maybe you just need to GitGud?

[Metus regem]

So I took out my High Roller last night, in what I would call a total joke build, 2xLB10 with 3xMLas.... It surprisingly effective in PGULife quick play. Still I have a perfance for the X2, that being said all of mine are using those stock engines with FF swapped for Endo.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 February 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

And yet the majority of posters are disagreeing with you. Go figure. Maybe you just need to GitGud?

GitGud? I don't know, you tell me! One thing for sure is that I do have higher K/D ratio and higher match score than you, working steadly toward to tier 1 (arghhh..... I mean exp bar 1.)

I don't know, personally I really do not like mentioning stuffs like this, since obviously there are far better players than us, it is kind of embarrassing isn't it?


And speaking of people agreeing and disagreeing, quite a lot of well-known and top-ranked players agree with my view, such as our Dane the Jarl, our dear Kanajashi, Snuggles Time and plenty of others I failed to mention.

You know, as you see the date and looking through the reddit, this discussion has been occurred several times and pretty much reached the same conclusion.


Edit : OH my god why I can't get rid of "[Media]" tag?
Edit 2 : Ok, I got rid of youtube channel links... otherwise it looks ugly. You can always search for them..

Edited by The Lighthouse, 05 February 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Composite Armour, on 05 February 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

I seem to have more luck with LBX-10s than AC10s, is there any trick to using the bog-standard AC10?

Not really.. just keep your fire focused on a single component, and they work just fine. I find the LB-X terrible for actually hurting and killing things, still. Dual AC10 is a repeatable jackhammer, 20 mid range, low heat damage, every 2.5 seconds. I also find 2x UAC5 to work in the same role, though it's a bit more for suppression and flanking than straight face ripping.

End of the day...it's a Medium Mech. You survive by NOT being the center of attention. Sure, sometimes you'll win against other, bigger robots, but not something to bank on. But if you rove the battle line, or find a nice flank to exploit, those dual AC10 can make short work of even a KDK. I mean... IMO, driving a Medium is always about looking for the mismatches... like last night when I caught a LRM Spirit Bear by himself. I had 1x AC10, 2x MLs and 4x SSRM2, he had a buttload of LRM tubes and 2x ERMLs. I caught him offguard at PBR, and even though my firepower wasn't great, it was enough to carry, and his 2 lasers had enough beam duration for me to shake it off and spread the damage, easily.

IMO, that is the life of a Medium Jock.

Metus regem, on 05 February 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

So I took out my High Roller last night, in what I would call a total joke build, 2xLB10 with 3xMLas.... It surprisingly effective in PGULife quick play. Still I have a perfance for the X2, that being said all of mine are using those stock engines with FF swapped for Endo.

Dude, no way, you use XLs? Haven't you been listening? XL is auto DoA!!!!!!! GOSH!

[FLG 01]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 February 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

End of the day...it's a Medium Mech. You survive by NOT being the center of attention.

Yes, and occasionally it is weird because medium Mechs are often seen as less of a threat than heavies or lights (though sometimes rightly so).

In my last match with the BSW, I lost my leg early on in the middle of a brawl, sitting there vulnerable right under the eyes of two enemy Kodiaks - and they turned away to fight my heavy companions. So I just stood there and began shooting at the enemy Mechs as they were running around me. But they still ignored me even as I killed them one after the other. It was surreal.

Obviously credit goes to my teammates for making a stand and not leaving me; also I had only few KMDD. The true winner is the team, but it still strange that noone shot at me after I lost my leg.

Spoiler

Oh, and the firepower the BSW can bring helped too. It's what I like about the Mech.

I only wish the quirks would be better at emphasizing the Bushwacker's canon role of fire support.

Edited by FLG 01, 05 February 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Topical rant in relation to the whole XL Centurion thing.

Spoiler

Fact is, there will always be a large portion of the community who reads a review of a mech or configuration based on an individual's "educated opinion," and fail to question it. To test it. To really be critical of it.

If the T1 compies say something is only good one way, then surely they must all be right. Except a lot of the time, in my personal experience, while a lot of them are technically capable players as far as in game combat is concerned, quite a few simply take as gospel what others they respect say. Further, they view things in absolutes. Black or white. Excellent or terrible. There is no in between, even if in actuality what makes a mech "optimal" vs "suboptimal" is a theoretical 1-2% difference in overall capabilities that are, in all practical senses of reality, less than a legitimate factor of optimization. Reality is, there are very many shades of grey in this game. Many of which are so close to black as to be damned near indistinguishable in practice. The answer being "there are several correct answers" is a valid response.

"Bah!" I say. Bah. Experimentation and breaking molds is how you can really explore things. Yes, there are some things which hold 100% predictably true, but there are a lot of things I've seen this community follow after like mindless sheep because some guy somewhere did it, and he's good, and his friends took him at face value, and they do well, so it must be the only answer, right? It's a feedback loop.

Short story: who invented the 6 large laser Stalker? This guy right here. About a day after the mech was released, I mentioned I used that setup. SEVERAL people in the forum jumped on me. Multiple people screaming "that's impossible to play!" "You can't build that!" "It's too hot!" I happened to have video footage of it, which I directly linked. A lot of people in that thread ate their shoes that day.

Flash forward to CW, and guess what sort of Stalker setup got run like mad? A room full of wrong people does not make them right. Individuals can be the correct ones, even if the masses agree to felicitate one another's opinions blindly.

So, when a person states something so in conflict with what many people are saying, and can consistently get results despite that conflict, maybe, juuuust maybe, that person isn't full of crap. Writing it off is foolish.

Edit:

I know some of you will disagree with me. That is not my concern.

That rant out of the way? My experience, fighting Bushwackers in scouting mode primarily? It's an extremely tanky medium mech. Having compressed frontal hit boxes means SRM spam against it doesn't have the same sort of damage chunking to any given component that I'd expect firing on, say, a Grif or a Shadow Hawk, as the splat will tend to spread between several components, even in a direct torso hit. Even before the 10 extra armor on it per section, which is a large amount of extra armor given the weight of the mech.

It's durable as hell from the front. From the side, however, that side torso is gigantic. Reminds me of a Marauder, or perhaps even a Crab. When fighting them head on, however, I need to remind myself to only go for legs when I can, like when fighting Crabs. Even when I am piloting my 72-point alphastrike Huntsman that can literally two shot any other medium mech from front CT. Against a Bushy, it just won't happen. Not with the automatic damage spread. Those arms, however, do protect those legs fairly well in a brawl. Being low slung is an advantage there, much like how the arms of a Nova can help protect the legs of the mech. Torso wise, the mech armor rolls automatically, and leg wise the arms tend to block a lot of shots. That makes the mech very, very tanky.

In situations like in scouting, especially as a Clan pilot, heat is my enemy. If the fight goes longer than I'd like, I am redlining. If the enemy mech can absorb a lot of my damage without falling over, this puts me at an extreme disadvantage as I'd be heat locking myself. If I cannot fight back, I will die eventually. Makes the mech a potentially good pick in 4v4 mode. Especially with the Splat version, though it's hard to go wrong with SRM and a large AC.

Edit:

One more thing. People keep expecting the world of a medium mech. Nostalgia needs to be put aside for a legitimate look at the mech. You cannot expect a medium to go toe to toe with a high end heavy or assault. Don't expect more than what you can reasonably hope from any given mech. It is a 55 ton medium that is extremely durable for its tonnage. No more or less.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 February 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[panzer1b]

The Lighthouse, on 04 February 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Yes, Bushwacker will have a firepower of a light clan mech and the speed of a clan assault, thanks to XL engine imbalance.

However, you can still squeeze two UAC 5 on chassis and 2 medium lasers with STD 250, which is quite respectable fire power with about 79kph movement speed after the elite skills... which is not bad at all. You can do this build on 4 of the 6 chassis too.

I dont understand the desire to run a standard on any IS mech besides assaults (or the rare few with terribad hitboxes)? To retain any sort of firepower you NEED to have an XL period, unless you want to turn your mech into a point defense turret which will just get outmaneuvered every time. I know i may be biased but in every single game that has vehicular combat and does not rely on something akin to ricochets or armor completely nullifying damage, mobility and firepower tend to be the best way to go for me with just enough armor to do some trading/tanking. That and with quirks its not like XLs are a deathtrap with all but a select few mechs that just have terrible hitboxes. Never had major survivability issues with IS XLs, its just a matter of not being stupid and spreading damage around effectively. Take my marader for example, that thing has huge STs and even there i almost never die due to ST knockout until im so hurt that id be useless even if i did survive the ST destruction.

Anyways, about the whacker, i have to say its a hit and miss mech. I do not own one but facing many of them i have found that they perform pretty well frontally as its one of very few mechs i consider somewhat safe to facetank in provided you move side to side a little bit here and there to keep someone from dumping 60 lazor alfa into one component. Its also somewhat unique in its ability to mount a pretty devastating autocannon loadout which is at least unique. With an XL and the proper speed sacrifice it can run something like dual ac-10 (something that only assasults and heavys can pull off) and it also has a very good 6xsrm boat version. The only 2 major issues ive come across sofar (when shooting them) is that they are incredibly vulnurable to being flanked (same issue that raven got), and that running missile boxes makes it much easier to hit the thing's STs since they stick out and are quite easy to hit with lazors from ~300-400m). Still, Id say its a solid option, prolly not meta or comp or whatnot, but it looks to be fun and defenetely something id at least consider getting once its out for free (f2p here).

[RealNoob]

First off, I dont own BSWs and dont plan on doing so. I only shoot at them.
From my perspective, the difference between XL and STD builds is obvious, the former one beeing really fragile. While the frontal profile isnt bad, STs are easy to hit from the sides. It gets much worse if the BSW mounts missile racks on the ST as they cant be shielded well.
If it lost just a little armor on a ST (5 points or so) it can be one-shotted by the good old wubshee and all of the even bigger lolphas out there.
Even if half of it is missing after such a hit, the STD build at least survives. XL = instagib.

I dont know if the fragility is worth the gains in tonnage on this mech and if said fragility justifies calling XL-BSWs deathtraps but they do go down quickly.