32 replies to this topic

[CK16]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thanatos

So per sarna....is she an omnimech or battlemech? Seems to me that although the design was a quite capable Omni mech, they had to swap it back to battlemech

[Hit the Deck]

The variants on Sarna seem to indicate that it's a BattleMech. MUL also says the same.

BTW, I've read that there are TT rules concerning changing the status of an OmniMech to a BattleMech, for example when you modify an Omni's engine then it becomes a BattleMech.

Weird, though all of that could be wrong since I myself am not well versed on the (TT) rules.

[1453 R]

The TRO version is apparently a BattleMech, and as such if the Thanatos was introduced to MWO it would be a BattleMech.

Prolly for the best. As an Omni chassis it'd be Meta-Suboptimal and thus super hated, but as a BattleMech it gets double its natural hardpoint count for free and can fix any problems it'd otherwise have. Might honestly be a respectable heavy design - comes with ECM, hefty* jet capacity, and with MRMs in it can either do missile hammering or (probably) Sphere beam/PPC spam. Would not be the Ultimate Meta Overlord folks want, but it'd be serviceable.

[RestosIII]

Yeah, pretty sure it's the same way that MW4 called the Mad Cat MK II an Omnimech. It was just wrong.

[Bishop Steiner]

CK16, on 06 February 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thanatos

So per sarna....is she an omnimech or battlemech? Seems to me that although the design was a quite capable Omni mech, they had to swap it back to battlemech

It was originally designed to be an Omnimech, but by the time they got the design ready for marketing, the LCAF and AFFS were no longer in the market for an Omni, mostly because of the cost, and so they did a crash resign to a standard Battlemech to get the contract. A few other MW4 designs were treated similarly for lore purposes, when being translated from MW4 to TT... meaning essentially that in MW4 you were driving prototypes.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 February 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Did MW4 really say it was an Omnimech, or did it have an Omni hardpoint that made every get confused and think it was an Omnimech?

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Did MW4 really say it was an Omnimech, or did it have an Omni hardpoint that made every get confused and think it was an Omnimech?

having omni hardpoints, by default, makes it an Omnimech, in MW4, since even tried and true Omnis like the Timberwolf, had a blend of fixed and omni slots.

And TRO 3067 says it was origianlly designed to be an Omni, but that the final production models were made into battlemechs because the market for omnis was dead at the time. (Ditto with the Argus lore)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 February 2017 - 09:04 AM.

[Metus regem]

According to all of my sources the Thanny is a Battlemech, that's the TRO's and MUL that call her a Battlemech. So in short, yes MW4 lied, like a rug. I feel a little bad for people that are coming into Battletech/MWO from MW4, as they are often finding that their beloved mechs from MW4 are not as good in TT or not Omni's that they thought they were because of MW4 got things so wrong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

having omni hardpoints, by default, makes it an Omnimech

I think that was a rule TT nerds applied more than anything.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

And TRO 3067 says it was origianlly designed to be an Omni, but that the final production models were made into battlemechs because the market for omnis was dead at the time. (Ditto with the Argus lore)

The Argus didn't have omni hardpoints in MW4, so that doesn't quite line up for at least the Argus.
I don't even remember if the Thanny had an omni hardpoint either, I'll have to check that after work.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 06 February 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

as they are often finding that their beloved mechs from MW4 are not as good in TT or not Omni's that they thought they were because of MW4 got things so wrong.

See this line of thought bothers me a bit. I don't think they were trying to be exactly 1:1 with lore, and honestly it was in the best interest of the series that they didn't. Granted there is a fine line between doing what MW4 did while still retaining the appeal, and becoming Mechassault.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I think that was a rule TT nerds applied more than anything.


The Argus didn't have omni hardpoints in MW4, so that doesn't quite line up for at least the Argus.
I don't even remember if the Thanny had an omni hardpoint either, I'll have to check that after work.

I believe the Thanatos had an Omni hardpoint, yes. I don't remember its specific configuration, but I do recall it being Omni-capable in at least one spot. And yeah, the distinction between 'OmniMech' and 'BattleMech' in MW4 was...honestly mostly semantic.

I do think there was something to be said for what MW4 tried, and it bothers me too that people razz on it so much. The game was fun, regardless of what folks say all'a damn time around here. And how badly a lot of them diss folks who came into the series with MW4.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

See this line of thought bothers me a bit. I don't think they were trying to be exactly 1:1 with lore, and honestly it was in the best interest of the series that they didn't. Granted there is a fine line between doing what MW4 did while still retaining the appeal, and becoming Mechassault.

Very much so, I do not begrudge MW4 for adding things like sized and typed hard points, it makes a lot of sense for Battlemechs. Where I begrudge MW 4, is going playing fast and loose with the term Omni-mech, as what makes an Omni-mech an Omni-mech would be not having typed and sized hard points, rather than just an open sized hard point or two.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against not being 100% accurate to lore, but things like Black Lanners having a 360 degree torso twist, one or two Omni-slots making a mech an Omni-mech, changing an Omni-mech's engine or internals, with out turning it into a battlemech, that;s what bothers me, as when it comes to MWO, there are people that want mechs like the Black Lanner, that they don't realize will not perform the same here, as MWO operates closer to Battletech rules than MW4 did. Take the Bushy for example I knew going into it, that she would be an average mech, and she is average, yet I know of people that were expecting it to be awesome from how it did in MW3 and 4 and yet they find them selves very disappointed with it here, often citing it as under performing. All of that can be chalked up to not doing their home work on the mech before hand.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 06 February 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

changing an Omni-mech's engine or internals

Gonna correct you a little bit on this one. Internals were unchangeable in MW4, as was engine type (engine rating was changeable though). Armor was changeable as well, but given how they ditched the concept of criticals for equipment and balanced them without it, it makes more sense for that to be allowable.

Metus regem, on 06 February 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

All of that can be chalked up to not doing their home work on the mech before hand.

Meh, in an era before Clans and quirks being used for tech balance it would've been unique (well if poptarts weren't a thing in that era as well). That said, yeah, the liberties MW4 took did set some higher expectations (like the fact you could fit an LBX10 in the CT of the Bushi in MW4).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 06 February 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Very much so, I do not begrudge MW4 for adding things like sized and typed hard points, it makes a lot of sense for Battlemechs. Where I begrudge MW 4, is going playing fast and loose with the term Omni-mech, as what makes an Omni-mech an Omni-mech would be not having typed and sized hard points, rather than just an open sized hard point or two.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against not being 100% accurate to lore, but things like Black Lanners having a 360 degree torso twist, one or two Omni-slots making a mech an Omni-mech, changing an Omni-mech's engine or internals, with out turning it into a battlemech, that;s what bothers me, as when it comes to MWO, there are people that want mechs like the Black Lanner, that they don't realize will not perform the same here, as MWO operates closer to Battletech rules than MW4 did. Take the Bushy for example I knew going into it, that she would be an average mech, and she is average, yet I know of people that were expecting it to be awesome from how it did in MW3 and 4 and yet they find them selves very disappointed with it here, often citing it as under performing. All of that can be chalked up to not doing their home work on the mech before hand.

Bushy was a mediocre mech in MW4, too. In MW3, with it's vanilla generic gunbag mechlab, literally ANY mech could be good, so it really doesn't count.

Also, don't blame MW4 for a lot of that...blame Mektek for all the liberties they took. They started pretty well, then jumped the hell outta that shark.

The biggest issue I had with MW4 was how useless the Small and Medium Lasers and smaller weapons in general were, at least originally. I think they got some buffs eventually with Mektek, but that could be nostalgia tricking me.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I think that was a rule TT nerds applied more than anything.


The Argus didn't have omni hardpoints in MW4, so that doesn't quite line up for at least the Argus.
I don't even remember if the Thanny had an omni hardpoint either, I'll have to check that after work.

Why would anything other than an omnimech have an omni slot?

And the Argus was mentioned for the OP sake, as teh TRO lists a similar development from Omni to Battlemech. And lists the MW4 Uziel as a prototype, with the TRO version totally (and terribly) different, etc.

[DjKonline]

so the question i have is.... Is it really a 360 torso twist like in MW4? that would be the biggest "buy me" factor for myself ( i need something bigger than an urbie that can run away while looking at you firing everything i have )

[CK16]

Even the Urbie doesn't have a 360 torso twist in lore. It was a gimme by PGI to make the mech not a literal trash can. Thanatos would not have 360 torso twist, nor would the Black lanner or Blood Asp. Hell even the Raven in MW4 had 360 twist xD it's gimmick of Mektek though.

[Battlemaster56]

CK16, on 06 February 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Even the Urbie doesn't have a 360 torso twist in lore. It was a gimme by PGI to make the mech not a literal trash can. Thanatos would not have 360 torso twist, nor would the Black lanner or Blood Asp. Hell even the Raven in MW4 had 360 twist xD it's gimmick of Mektek though.

I wonder would they give the Urbie IIC 360 torso twist too? Now thinking about it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Why would anything other than an omnimech have an omni slot?

Cuz battlemechs can be flexible too? I mean if you wanted to simplify the HBK-4G/H/J/P all into one, you could easily do that with a large omni hardpoint. The Omnimech concept is different enough that I don't draw a parallel between Omnimechs and Omni hardpoints.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

And the Argus was mentioned for the OP sake, as teh TRO lists a similar development from Omni to Battlemech.

I am aware you mentioned the Argus for the OP's sake, but it is still a good example of the fact that just because the Omnimech -> Battlemech lore background doesn't mean the MW4 version was an actual Omnimech.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Cuz battlemechs can be flexible too? I mean if you wanted to simplify the HBK-4G/H/J/P all into one, you could easily do that with a large omni hardpoint. The Omnimech concept is different enough that I don't draw a parallel between Omnimechs and Omni hardpoints.

Especially fitting as I do believe all of the named variants are basically just field refits of the original G, and therefor things you'd logically expect an 'Omni' hardpoint to handle.

I miss MW4 sometimes...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 06 February 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Hell even the Raven in MW4 had 360 twist xD it's gimmick of Mektek though.

No, Mektek didn't start the 360 torso twist as I believe both the Mad Dog and Summoner had it before Mektek even started modding.