814 replies to this topic

[Kael Posavatz]

Paul Inouye, on 08 February 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Regarding MC vs CB consumables.

You guys have found an error. It is not intended that the MC versions of Air/Arty/UAV outperform CB versions. This will be corrected prior to release.

I have always greatly admired PGI for avoiding the Pay-to-Win pitfalls common to F2P gaming. I am disappointed that but the way consumables will now work are taking more than a mere step in that direction.

Allow me to explain.

The UAV tree has ten nodes, and presumably the arty/air/coolshot will have a similar number. A mech can carry two consumables so call it twenty nodes or 22% of a mech's skill capacity to max out both so they are inline with the MC variants.

But a player can pay real money on a per-match basis and enjoy the benefits of both those maxed-out consumables and employ the 20 nodes he would have otherwise needed to use elsewhere.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 08 February 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Time to open your caches people and get more modules to cash in on patch day.

[El Bandito]

LRM range reduction doesn't make sense BTW. No one is gonna touch the LRM range skill node, except the uninformed.

[Dee Eight]

People who like to play LRMs will use the range nodes.

[silberfuchs]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

So you are of the view that we should just accept that the majority of variants are obsolete/not worth owning?

And even if that were the case, lots of variants can do different loadouts, so duplicates will happen.

For most omnimechs yes actually since you can mix and match to your heart's content however you want your loadout. Personally I generally find a build I like then stick pretty close to that build for the lifetime of that mech. Obviously big changes like the timeline advance will change that.

When it comes to battlemechs there are some that I just plain like better because they suit my playstyle. I don't want to buy a laser vomit variant of a mech just so I can master my brawler variant.

[Flutterguy]

Kael Posavatz, on 08 February 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

I have always greatly admired PGI for avoiding the Pay-to-Win pitfalls common to F2P gaming. I am disappointed that but the way consumables will now work are taking more than a mere step in that direction.

Allow me to explain.

The UAV tree has ten nodes, and presumably the arty/air/coolshot will have a similar number. A mech can carry two consumables so call it twenty nodes or 22% of a mech's skill capacity to max out both so they are inline with the MC variants.

But a player can pay real money on a per-match basis and enjoy the benefits of both those maxed-out consumables and employ the 20 nodes he would have otherwise needed to use elsewhere.

Paul Inouye, on 08 February 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Regarding MC vs CB consumables.

You guys have found an error. It is not intended that the MC versions of Air/Arty/UAV outperform CB versions. This will be corrected prior to release.

[Johnathan Tanner]

RIP Inner Sphere.

[MovinTarget]

coe7, on 08 February 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm projecting it as absolute norm to master usage of consumables for the tier 1 players who boast 3.0+ KDR in quickplay leaderboards. Since you claim you can't turn matches around using consumables, without even checking I assume your lifetime history in quickplay stats revolves around ~1 KDR, ~250avg score. Hence, I'm quite sure just adjusting your consumable usage would double your win/loss ratio and improve you match score averages.

But hey, this is MWO, game where proper way to do things is argue against those with better knowledge rather than learn from them. You do not seem to break the mold.

Again, you offer opinion and no supportable facts, only your own experience. I was in 228 at one point, i am still friends with lots of them. Never in my time there did they tout the virtues of mc consumables. If you can't provide more than personal experience which is skewed due to being, well, personal than your opinion carries no more weight than mine. Can they give an advantage, I suppose they could. Will it cause a pilots performance to improve drastically? That would speak to the player needing to improve in various areas in their gameplay.

This point is kind of moot since they announce a correction in the skill vs mc consumables anyway. So it won't be p2w by anyone's assertion.


I just reread your last post btw, i noticed you stopped talik about the "mc" consumables and just focused on consumables... sure i used the cbill ones all the time... you do know there are cbill versions right? Unskilled, they still give plenty of value for *all* players... freeloaders and whales alike.

Edited by MovinTarget, 08 February 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[shopsmart]

El Bandito, on 08 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

LRM range reduction doesn't make sense BTW. No one is gonna touch the LRM range skill node, except the uninformed.

LOL, just realized that lore LRM launchers are 21 hexes IE, 630 meters. The 1000 (900) meters is generous of PGI meanwhile SRMs are stuck at TT ranges.

[Kael Posavatz]

Yep, FRlutterguy as I said. Paul's point is that skill trees for the other consumables will be put in.

My point is that tying consumables to skill-nodes on individual mechs will let people spending real-money outperform the F2P players because they will be able to spend all of their nodes on non-consumable skills and bring maximum-performance (MC) consumables.

F2P players will have the choice to bring a mech that is inferior in skills, or consumables inferior in capability.

That is the definition of Pay-to-Win.

And since I am on the subject, the P2W player has far more versatility because he can swap between the four-consumables without needing to retrain his mech, which saves him the time spent gaining the cbills and XP needed to do so.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 08 February 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[coe7]

MovinTarget, on 08 February 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Again, you offer opinion and no supportable facts, only your own experience. I was in 228 at one point, i am still friends with lots of them.

No one is touting virtues of MC consumables, but what you don't seem to grasp is that before Paul made his announcement, some MC consumables could be boosted over cbill ones / you could use for example MC UAV, get proper duration and range without spending 14+ points of the mech skill tree on the mech specific cbill UAV boosting skills. Cbill UAV without pilot skill tree boosts is very inferior compared to MC one, almost to point of being useless. Hence, you could use MC UAV and spend those mech points for UAV upgrade on more speed, damage or hitpoints.

Hence, using MC consumable with this new system would have allowed to spend 14 points on different parts of the mech, generating an p2w advantage.

And yes, consumable usage is one of the biggest things in this game. Properly launched strikes, uavs and CS's make or break a match. Combine this with the point saving, yeah, things would have been ugly.

Luckily, PGI quickly grasped what I ment. You on the otherhand are trying to namedrop your old 228 mates. My proof is my actual play and recorded statistical history of it. Do you have more than just being member of 228 at some point of your life? Can your recorded gameplay prove that you know what you are talking about?

Edited by coe7, 08 February 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[JaegerDjinn]

metallio, on 08 February 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I really, really think this is far too much cash for skills. That's over 9 million freakin' cbills to fully master a single mech. You can't play fancy footwork with relocating modules and that was ridiculously annoying, and "respeccing" costs an immense amount (2.3MM cbills).

I...honestly don't know what to say. Anyone with more than one or two mechs they play very often, and who enjoys playing around with the role that mech plays is ...well, out of luck.

I play all the time. I play at work, I play at night, and I buy mechs with cbills like it's my job...and there's no way in hades I have enough to decide my P-hawk sniper should try out PPCs instead of LLasers, oh hey I don't like the heat management I'll swap it back, nah, I'll slap a bigger engine in it and play brawler for a little while...

Not that you can't do that in the new system, it just requires millions upon millions of Cbills. Maybe I should just buy one mech of a variant for every possible version of every role I could possibly want to play? Then I guess I could just swap engines around...after blowing almost ten million cbills on mastering the thing.


It's not the general structure, it's the cash. There is no way I can see how to make enough to play the game and screw around with builds with this pricing.

I'm not fond of people whining about cash flows etc, but I can't make this work. I can't threaten to quit over it, who cares? I just literally can't keep playing the game in any sort of dynamic fashion with these prices. I'm not quitting...I just can't play like this.

MechaBattler, on 08 February 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

7.5 million to max one mech? So as much as a whole mech just for one?

I get the modules were expensive. But we didn't all buy a set of them for each mech. I bought maybe 6 of them. : /

How about you just make the former modules more expensive and make the other skills cheaper?

This is going to be rough for new players who are not only at a disadvantage because they're only starting to collect equipment, but now they have to pay for basic skills. So they have to decide do I get that engine and PPC or do I skill up?

Dont forget they said they would give us back all money we have spent on mods over the time when they first mentioned the new tree in their first Jan, Feb and beyond post.

Edited by jjyn, 08 February 2017 - 05:19 PM.

[Sky Hawk]

Dee Eight, on 08 February 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

People who like to play LRMs will use the range nodes.

Yes Sir!.. We will!... Under 1000 m???... That's just... Meeehhhdium Range...

[Flutterguy]

Kael Posavatz, on 08 February 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Yep, FRlutterguy as I said. Paul's point is that skill trees for the other consumables will be put in.

My point is that tying consumables to skill-nodes on individual mechs will let people spending real-money outperform the F2P players because they will be able to spend all of their nodes on non-consumable skills and bring maximum-performance (MC) consumables.

F2P players will have the choice to bring a mech that is inferior in skills, or consumables inferior in capability.

That is the definition of Pay-to-Win.

And since I am on the subject, the P2W player has far more versatility because he can swap between the four-consumables without needing to retrain his mech, which saves him the time spent gaining the cbills and XP needed to do so.

I'm pretty sure he means that by default the MC and CBill consumables will be brought on par with each other without needing skillpoints.

[MechaBattler]

jjyn, on 08 February 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

Dont forget they said they would give us back all money we have spent on mods over the time.

Not everyone bought those for every mech though, you know, since you can swap them around. And now you have to pay for every single skill. Where as before it had no c-bill cost.

At the same time. We don't have to buy 3 mechs and their upgrades. But still...it's gonna be rough for the new guys.

[MovinTarget]

coe7, on 08 February 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

No one is touting virtues of MC consumables, but what you don't seem to grasp is that before Paul made his announcement, some MC consumables could be boosted over cbill ones / you could use for example MC UAV, get proper duration and range without spending 14+ points of the mech skill tree on the mech specific cbill UAV boosting skills. Cbill UAV without pilot skill tree boosts is very inferior compared to MC one, almost to point of being useless. Hence, you could use MC UAV and spend those mech points for UAV upgrade on more speed, damage or hitpoints.

Hence, using MC consumable with this new system would have allowed to spend 14 points on different parts of the mech, generating an p2w advantage.

And yes, consumable usage is one of the biggest things in this game. Properly launched strikes, uavs and CS's make or break a match. Combine this with the point saving, yeah, things would have been ugly.

Luckily, PGI quickly grasped what I ment. You on the otherhand are trying to namedrop your old 228 mates. My proof is my actual play and recorded statistical history of it. Do you have more than just being member of 228 at some point of your life?

Sigh my point is not that you are, rather there is more to this game than consumable warrior online... the only reason brought up 228 is your overall tone is dismissive and condescending, as if i don't know what i am talking about.

I still can't believe people would equate carrying 2 mc consumables to an immense advantage over bringing unskilled cbill versions. If you are comparing bringing mc consumable to no consumables at all, well yeah i would agree...

And yes i already edited my last post after seeong their recognition of the change. So bottom line is that until you unlock the max ability of cbill consumables, they will be inferior to mc versions... still not game-changing different from what i can tell. The biggest gripe will be having to unlock them on each mech chassis.

[Kell Morgan]

The Cbill cost for unlocking these nodes is RIDICULOUS! As I'm grinding XP for 1 mech I'm grinding cbills for my next mech. If you want to charge some Cbills for a respec that's fine, still hurts the customization aspect of mech warrior, but understandable. I'm to sink over 9 million into my jenner just to master it? Thats about 3x what the entire mech COSTS!

Drop the cbills for unlocking and stop being greedy. If you want people to spend money to change their mind whatever, shouldn't have to pay to use xp I've already grinded for and earned!

[Kael Posavatz]

Flutterguy, on 08 February 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure he means that by default the MC and CBill consumables will be brought on par with each other without needing skillpoints.

If he did, we'll see. I took it to mean that since Arty/Air/Cool nodes weren't in the game and UAV was that they would add skill trees for the other consumables.

[coe7]

MovinTarget, on 08 February 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

I still can't believe people would equate carrying 2 mc consumables to an immense advantage over bringing unskilled cbill versions.

"as if i don't know what i am talking about."

How about you go look what basic UAV compares to MC UAV before pilot gxp boosts? Or go look what 9 by 9 coolshot does vs MC 18 coolshot variant, or air and artillery strikes..

I guess we are done here. You have no idea.

Edited by coe7, 08 February 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[Dee Eight]

I am betting a lot of the 38 members and 87 guests currently viewing this thread, aren't actually playing on the PTS.