814 replies to this topic

[Philosophical]

im cool with most of the changs. I like that things like advanced zoom wont take up a mech module slot, and I can have lots of "mech modules" on my favorite mechs now. but whats the point of GXP now? I know before it was for modules, but now I guess its just some extra xp that can be used anywhere? I guess when you get your cbills back for those modules, you will also be getting a ****ton of gxp back too, which can go directly to upgrading your mechs.

I also think that once you have sunk the cbills into upgrades, you should be able to move those upgrades around without additional cost. instead of charging for re-spec, just allow players to buy the number of upgrade points they have to distribute, once you reach a certain number, then your free to distribute them as you wish. That would keep the spirit of mechwarrior true with the new system.

[Vizius]

After thinking about this a bit they should just remove the cbill costs on skill points and just add the 9.1mil cost to each mech purchase. that way at least while you are grinding the xp. you can be saving up for your next mech purchase. Then at least you would get some benefit of reducing the cost when they put mechs on sale. It would also encourage people to spend money buying mechs vs grinding cbills.

It is basically front loading the cost and would solve the issue of people that have already purchased mechs. The only thing remaining is the modules purchased, and maybe they can give a GXP equivalent instead of a cbill amount for the refund that way people can use it to master mechs they already own, or refund the cbills for them to use to purchase new mechs at the increased cost..

New players like me will still be stuck with the extra grind to equip and buy mechs with the added cost.

Edited by Vizius, 09 February 2017 - 09:21 PM.

[Zergling]

SuperFunkTron, on 09 February 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Let those who believe that this game is all about max armor and 1 weapon type play that way while the rest of us have fun discovering the benefits of mobility, info tech, auxiliary nodes and mixed load outs.

Correction: potatoes will continue to be potatoes because they have no understanding of how to make a working build, while the non-potatoes will all be using almost identical builds because there is no choice under current PTS skill system.

Here is how the 91 points go:
Survival = 14 points
Operations = 19 points
Sensors = 19 points (21 if you want advanced zoom)
Lower Chassis = 20 points
A single Weapon Tree = 19 points (17 if you go with advanced zoom)

And that is all there is to the new skill system; this is the optimal build, because none of the other skills are worth taking over those in the above trees.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 February 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

I think its worth pointing out that it doesn't require 91 nodes to bring mechs up from the current system to the new system. If you want to make your mechs comparable to what you have "mastered" now, you are looking at approximately 50 nodes as I understand it. The argument that Those who have everything maxed out from before doesn't hold once its made clear that this system offers the chance to improve your mech significantly more than the old system allowed.

False.

Getting all the benefits of heat, speed, acceleration/decelleration, turn rate, torso yaw/pitch increase, torso twist speed that we currently have in elited mechs requires at least 59 points out of the 91.

Getting the benefits of modules like radar deprivation and seismic? Another 19 points, bringing it up to 74 out of 91.
Want to gain the benefits of range and cooldown modules for a single weapon type? At least 16 points, bringing it up to 90 points out of 91.

End result: players have to grind out 136.5k XP and 9.1 million cbills to gain similar buffs to what they currently have for 52.5k XP and 0 cbills.

Spectre1998, on 09 February 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

I believe this is an answer to everyone complaining about the 9.1 millon balance needed to change your mech.

Remember, this is FULLY mastering a mech. FULLY as in grinding the cbills for 2 other mechs, setting them up, and playing them till you had every one of your variants basic'd. I would take 9.1 mil over the 20+mil to fully invest in 3 variants of a mech, and especially certain variants who I pick and choose.

FYI, nobody ever had to fully master 3 variants of a single chassis; they only had to get 3 variants to basic, and could then sell 2.

In fact, because players could sell the mechs and parts they came with, they would get back around half the money they spent on the mechs to begin with.

Edited by Zergling, 09 February 2017 - 09:13 PM.

[Arkhangel]

@Zergling: in all honesty, fact is, until this is actually launched, everything either side is saying here is conjecture.

The good and/or smart players will adapt.

The whiners will leave.

And the game will be better for it.

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 February 2017 - 09:26 PM.

[YUyahoo]

So after playing around with the new tree on the PTS I really see no great advantage over the skill tree we currently have. For the most part any mech I have that uses more than one weapon system I cannot build as effectively as it currently is with just 91 points available. Here is what I have observed of what this new skill tree brings us:

-there are a lot less mechs that I can fully skill under the new system than I currently have fully skilled and given that the grind is now almost 3 times as much as it was to level a mech PGI needs to do more than just offer a 1 for 1 point transfer (a much better idea would be skill points equal to the percentage of the old tree a mech has completed...old tree 75% complete, get 68 skill points, old tree 40% complete new tree 36 points, old tree 100% complete get 91 skill points<---much more reflective of the time already spent on mechs than a 1for1 transfer when the new system needs nearly 3 times as much exps)
-the skill tree is still the same for all mechs, no difference in skills for lights, mediums, heavy, assault (except in the defensive category where the percentage armor and structure is higher for lighter mechs)...I'm finding far too often I build the skill tree the same way for each mech save for the weapon system and if the mech has JJ or ECM
-in the old system stronger mechs had fewer module slots and weaker mechs had more module slots but now every mech has just 91...so stronger mechs get stronger and weaker mechs get weaker
-this skill tree promotes boating more so that any other changes implemented since ghost heat was introduced to PREVENT excessive boating...91 points does not give you enough flexibility to quirk two different weapon systems
-even if you just run a single weapons system 91 points is not enough to be able to have the equivalent to the current skill tree plus module slots (once again addition by subtraction, much like the skill tree "improvements" from a little over a year ago that saw all mechs loose speed, mobility, heat dissipation...just once I'd like to see this game improved by ACTUALLY IMPROVING IT)
-IS weapon quirks are much lower than they are now for the most part while clan weapon quirks are for the most part about the same. How will this effect balance (specially with "new tech" coming very soon)
-the additional ammo quirk doesnt add to missles or mgs???? Don't they have ammo too???
-Lack of an MG and Flamer weapon tree
-if you have two variants of the same mech you shouldn't have to grind exps on it twice, specially if they are both already currently fully skilled out
-there are many skills you are forced to take to gain access to the skills you probably actually want (if a mech has no arm mounted weapons why does it HAVE to take all the arm agility quirks to get torso agility quirks for example)

So what did I like about the new skill tree? The armor and structure buffs that all mechs can get should help a bit with TTK...but I suspect that may be negated by the fact that more and more people will be boating weapons and running mostly meta builds if this system goes live. Seriously PGI, with all the time and effort you all have been (supposedly) devoting to the development and refinement of a new skill tree I was hoping for something a little...less amateurish.

[Arkhangel]

@YUyahoo: note the irony in what you said.... it's not Pirahna's fault there's a giant pile of Metafags in this game.

and acting like they DIDN'T put a lot of work into this isn't really helping your case either. it's on the PTS so people can give actual feedback, not bash them.

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 February 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[canadawhy2317x]

relatively new mwo player here. grew up on battletech and mw2/mechcommander, so not new to the mw universe, but i've only been playing mwo for a few months, with around 500 matches and around 535k xp under my belt. i consider myself a serious casual player, meaning i don't have enough time to really care about any faction play/end game/whatever, but when i do play, i want myself and my opponents to be at their best. here are my thoughts about the new skill tree and why it's implementation is extremely frustrating and discouraging to me.

i only have 2 mechs mastered, but i have 15-20 that are fully elite level. i chose not to master them because i wanted to experiment with different weight classes and chassis to find what suited me rather than invest in modules, so i didn't need the extra module slot.

the amount of xp i have is enough to unlock 357 nodes on the skill tree, assuming i have enough c-bills. after using 182 nodes to equivalently re-master my 2 previously mastered mechs, i am only left with 175 nodes to divide between my 15-20 previously elite level mechs.

there is no way to spec 10 or so nodes on each of my previously elite mechs to have them perform anywhere near their current abilities, so i am forced to pick, at most, 3-4 mechs to level if i want to keep any semblance of their current performance. with this new skill system, i am right back to basic with 75-80% of my mechs, completely wasting most of the small achievements i've earned learning to play the game.

if i want my mechs to have any real, noticeable boosts to their weapon systems, i am forced to spec into a single specialized weapon group for each mech, as tiny boosts spread out over several weapon systems are almost negligible. this kills any desire to experiment with different/varying loadouts, and also completely defeats the purpose of omnimechs, as changing omnipods to anything other than a similar hardpoint loadout would mean having to re-spec the entire mech to maintain performance.

TL/DR: as a new player with only 2 mastered mechs, and 15-20 elite mechs, with my current amount of xp, the new system only allows me to level 4-5 of my mechs to their current level of performance, while forcing very specialized builds that discourages variety, and discarding all progress i have made on the other 75-80% of mechs i own, forcing me to re-grind the vast majority of my mechs. not happy.

[Ryan Grey]

I don´t care for the balancing, i never did in any game, well at least i was never whining about it.

But this new skill/mastering system is the worst idea ever.
Why change it at all ?
The current system doesn´t put anyone at an advantage/ disadvantage.
Even casual players or fairly new ones were able to compete.

As for me, i just bought some additional mechs at the last sale for C-bills and now own around 70 mechs,
levingme with only afew millionC-bills.
Because i am currently without a job i was able to master some of my mechs so far.
But with the new system i not only have topay an insane amount of money to master/spec my mechs,
i´ll also getting punished if i want to respec.

This is the absolut horror for me, does PGI want me to stay jobless in order to be able to play the mechs i own ?
I cannot even imaging how this will be for the players who own even more mechs.
I mean this is Mechwarrior .... , owning many mechs is a goal for all of us.
This is just a huuuge slap into our collective face.

Do you think i can ask PGI to give me the money back that i already spent and a compensation for all the time i wasted playing this game ?

I mean, i came tothis thread because i was just about to buy something at the "sweet deals with MC" sale; but now....?
NO WAY

[Zergling]

Zergling, on 09 February 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

False.

Getting all the benefits of heat, speed, acceleration/decelleration, turn rate, torso yaw/pitch increase, torso twist speed that we currently have in elited mechs requires at least 59 points out of the 91.

Getting the benefits of modules like radar deprivation and seismic? Another 19 points, bringing it up to 74 out of 91.
Want to gain the benefits of range and cooldown modules for a single weapon type? At least 16 points, bringing it up to 90 points out of 91.

End result: players have to grind out 136.5k XP and 9.1 million cbills to gain similar buffs to what they currently have for 52.5k XP and 0 cbills.

Here are the skill and module bonuses mechs have currently on live server:

Heat Dissipation = 15%
Max Heat = 20%
Startup Speed = 33%
Acceleration = 15%
Deceleration = 15%
Turn Rate = 5%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Torso Yaw = 5%
Torso Twist Speed = 5%
Arm Speed = 5%
All Weapons Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Cooldown = 12%
One Weapon Range = 10%
Radar Deprivation
Seismic


Versus duplicating those as close as possible on the PTS:

Heat Dissipation = 10%
Max Heat = 15%
Startup Speed = 35%
Cost = 19 points

Acceleration = 50%
Deceleration = 50%
Turn Rate = 30%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Cost = 20 points

Torso Yaw = 8%
Torso Twist Speed = 4%
Arm Speed = 40%
Cost = 20 points

One Weapon Type Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Type Range = 10%
Cost = 11 or 12 points

Radar Deprivation
Seismic
Cost = 19 points

Total cost = 89 or 90 points

Edited by Zergling, 09 February 2017 - 09:38 PM.

[YUyahoo]

Arkhangel, on 09 February 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

@YUyahoo: note the irony in what you said.... it's not Pirahna's fault there's a giant pile of Metafags in this game.

and acting like they DIDN'T put a lot of work into this isn't really helping your case either. it's on the PTS so people can give actual feedback, not bash them.

White knight a little harder and maybe more than you will believe you. Maybe they did put a lot more effort into the tree than it shows but to me for the most part the fact that it encourages the one thing that PGI has tried for years to reduce/limit, boating weapons, it just doesn't seem very well thought through. I'm sorry you have issues with anyone who doesn't agree with everything PGI does, I'm sorry you have issues with critical feedback but I'm opinion is still my opinion and you not liking it will not change my mind.

[groundpounder47]

The cost of this is absolutely insane. I own 84 mechs currently and have put hours and hours into mastering almost all of them. Now, that is partially thrown away and I'm expected to pay over 9 million c-bills PER MECH to use XP I already earned. That is complete trash. I love this game, I love Battletech, but this is really ridiculous. I enjoyed the quirk system in most of it's iterations, but I guess I'll just have to play as much as possible before the patch so i can have a fonder memory of this game before it dies in two years or so. Kinda sad, really. Oh well.

[Zergling]

Arkhangel, on 09 February 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

@Zergling: in all honesty, fact is, until this is actually launched, everything either side is saying here is conjecture.

The good and/or smart players will adapt.

The whiners will leave.

And the game will be better for it.

I think I'll be able to adapt just fine to it; a bunch of my favourite mechs aren't being hit by significant quirk nerfs, and I've already used the PTS to work out optimal skill builds.

I don't think this is going to make the game better though; the system is just too limited in choice and encourages boating.

Also, changes that drive players away, when the game is already struggling to retain players, is not a good thing.

Edited by Zergling, 09 February 2017 - 09:55 PM.

[cougurt]

i'm still not entirely sure what to think about all of this, but here are some of my initial concerns:

1. way too expensive, discourages experimentation, and puts newer players at a bigger disadvantage than before. i think i would be okay with the cost if nodes were a one time purchase for each mech variant, with the ability to freely redistribute your points at any time.

2. discourages mixed builds, as you will need to invest in multiple trees to get the most out of your various weapon systems.

3. still not much real choice to be had. the mobility and infotech trees will almost certainly end up being essential for every build.

Edited by cougurt, 09 February 2017 - 10:14 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

Zergling, on 09 February 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

FYI, nobody ever had to fully master 3 variants of a single chassis; they only had to get 3 variants to basic, and could then sell 2.

In fact, because players could sell the mechs and parts they came with, they would get back around half the money they spent on the mechs to begin with.

Have to chime in on this one. You are wrong, if you have never mastered a mech in a weight class, then you have to unlock all basics and all elites on three different variants of a mech from that weight class before you can master any of them. Once you have mastered three variants of one mech from a weight class, you then only have to finish basics on three variants before you can master a variant. This has been in the game since open beta, or slightly after "launch" and I bet you can find threads where people were upset when this system was added to the game.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 09 February 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[Ryan Grey]

I agree with you "groundpounder47".

PGI creates with MW5 a direct rival for MWO and if MW5 will be like all MW titles before (campaign/ multiplayer, with many mechs/skins/decals...) ultimately will be MWO´s death.

This will make the latest sales/introductions look like a fire sale

[Arkhangel]

@SOulReapr: Thank you.

Lotta these guys forgot or just never knew about how things used to be when the game originally came out, or how much stuff IGP was f**king around with on the sidelines. I might white knight for PGI a lot, but I will hold them accountable for stuff that's ACTUALLY THEIR F**KING FAULT, I.E. say, how Broken the Thunderbolt 9S or 5SS used to be, or the Dragon 1N, when it basically had four AC/5s in one mounted AC/5, Or the Khan Mechs.

Also, please bear in mind PGI is NOT a large gaming company. they have a single office in a mall. I defend them because i'm not expecting miracles to get pulled off here, and overall, this PTS is a GOOD thing, as it's something we were actually promised back in the day when the game was being made, and something that IGP f**ked over ever showing up at the time, just like Faction Warfare.

I'm sick and bloody tired of forumwarriors whining about stuff, ESPECIALLY the ones saying "we need more maps/game modes" given they're the same metafags who only ever vote for cold maps and IGNORE new game modes. you REALLY give the devs for those incentive to WANT to give you more *eyeroll*

...Honestly.... we need to remove the map voting system. Game Mode Vote can stay. would cut down on the metafags because most of them can't manage their heat worth crap anyways.


@Ryan Grey: MW5 won't have a multiplayer mode. MWO IS its Multiplayer mode.

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 February 2017 - 10:26 PM.

[N0MAD]

AnimeFreak40K, on 09 February 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

How so?

Your mechs have been zeroed out, but you lost nothing, you just need to convert that Historical XP to Mech XP.

It presently costs 135,000 or so XP and 9,100,000 C-Bills to unlock all 91 nodes. Unless you have very few mechs and none of the mastered, you are going to have plenty of Historical XP (that can be turned into Mech XP) and GXP lying around to be used.

Under the old (or, rather, present) system, it would cost 128,750 XP to Master out a single mech, spread out across at the bare minimum, 3 mechs.
At present, it costs 14,250 XP to fully Basic a mech. But to be able to Elite that mech, you need to Basic out 2 others, for a total of 42,750 XP. Then it costs another 21,500 XP to fully Elite the mech, but to Master it, you have to do the same thing for 2 additional mechs of the same Class, which at minimum is a total of 64,500 XP.

The grind is there, yes. But rather than force a player to grind out 2+ additional mechs to fully master just one, a player can fully focus on that one mech they like.

And the C-Bill cost? Most (but by no means all) players have purchased and applied any number of modules... most of these are the 'very expensive' type (6 million each). So if you have Seismic and Radar Derp, you actually come away with *more* C-Bills.

End Result of mastering 3 mechs now is that you actually have 3 elite mechs that you can configure differently arm differently according to quirks if you want and change loadout next game, you can use the modules on all three, especially the high $ ones you describe. You can change style of play at your whim over 3 diff chassis with multiple weapons configs and module configs and about same grind to have them all elited XP wise, yes the 15 mil or so spent on modules is an extra, but considering you can use those same modules on you next 10+ mechs is also a huge saving if you are not flush with coin.
New system, same XP grind as doing 3 chasis, 9+ mil to spec, but now only one chasis with one module loadout and efficient in only one weapons load out. Now you are stuck with that play style, to have say three play styles available,, you need to own 3 chassis grind 3 times more for each chassis and spend 9+ mil on each, 27+ mill and an extra what roughly 280k point (total of what 400k) to have 3 play styles which is still less options than the plays style options you have with present system?. really?

[Joe Decker]

WayTooSexy, on 08 February 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Honestly I think we should get at least 5million cbills per every mech we already have mastered, damn I play thid game a lot and wasted a lot of money and time getting a lot of mechs and mastering those, and now I have to farm 9.1 m cbills per every mech again?? How on earth im gonna farm 364000000 million of cbills??? And theres people that has 200+ mechs.... Its like a slap on the face...
PD: I just have like 5 modules

I just calculated I will need 2821000000 CBils to pay for mastering my Mechs. Even I might get 200000000 back for already bought Modules I will still have to grind for 2621000000 CBills.

If it stays like this and they don't reduce the Cost by 90% or disable the CBill Cost for skilling I am out.

[Joe Decker]

Vizius, on 09 February 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

After thinking about this a bit they should just remove the cbill costs on skill points and just add the 9.1mil cost to each mech purchase. that way at least while you are grinding the xp. you can be saving up for your next mech purchase. Then at least you would get some benefit of reducing the cost when they put mechs on sale. It would also encourage people to spend money buying mechs vs grinding cbills.

It is basically front loading the cost and would solve the issue of people that have already purchased mechs. The only thing remaining is the modules purchased, and maybe they can give a GXP equivalent instead of a cbill amount for the refund that way people can use it to master mechs they already own, or refund the cbills for them to use to purchase new mechs at the increased cost..

New players like me will still be stuck with the extra grind to equip and buy mechs with the added cost.

I liked your Post because - even if the Solution you offer is a bad one - it is still better than what PGI got in Mind currently.

[Asterios]

Zergling, on 09 February 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

FYI, nobody ever had to fully master 3 variants of a single chassis; they only had to get 3 variants to basic, and could then sell 2.

In fact, because players could sell the mechs and parts they came with, they would get back around half the money they spent on the mechs to begin with.

Not true with omnipods system