814 replies to this topic

[Ravenlord]

Arkhangel, on 09 February 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

@Zergling: in all honesty, fact is, until this is actually launched, everything either side is saying here is conjecture.

The good and/or smart players will adapt.

The whiners will leave.

And the game will be better for it.

If you honestly think any players leaving (some of them paying ones) is a good thing for a game with as small a playerbase as MWO currently has, get off of your high horse and think again.

If something changes to be a cause of frustration instead of fun, leaving is actually the smart thing to do and has got nothing to do with whining. Likewise staying and adapting has nothing to do with being smart, it only means you either like the change (or at least don't consider the bad outweighing the good) or are an addict slash masochist.

Also those "metafags" you so readily bring up all the time will be most happy with this skill tree, because it means they now can slap uac jam chance and ammo quirks on their KDK-3s, PPC velocity and heat gen on their Hunchback IICs, Summoners and Shadow Cats, missile quirks on their chainfiring Mad Dogs, etc etc.

Edited by Ravenlord, 09 February 2017 - 11:31 PM.

[Reverend Herring]

All in all, I think it's fine. I'm fine with the fact that the skill points cost money. I'm fine with the fact, that there are some pretty useless skills in the trees.

The only real gripe I have, is the cost of re-spec. I'd say the simplest solution is to leave the initial costs as is (for now at least) and remove the cbill/mc cost for re-spec entirely. It should definetly be an unlock, not reoccuring cost.. That way the tinkering in mechlab would remain a fun part of the game. With the current cost of re-spec, no way.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

So after reading a few comments and giving it a try myself for a little bit...

Assaults will be absolutely f-ing devastating. I tried some nice broken builds and they worked nicely.

I do like some of the extra sweet points they have thrown in but they will be nasty e.g. reduced spread on weapons and reduced heat gen. Magazine size is nice but I dont see anything broken from it.

Cost of 9.1 mill to level a mech. Currently if you added the modules on blank mech, normally that's radar derp + seismic + two weapon modules (6+6+3+3 = 18million). Ok you have saved half for one mech. Problem is... in the old system you could save money buy swapping your investments (very annoying and could have been easily fixed, but no). Logically the latter made sense, you are equipping the mech. Proposed system, you "skill" up your radar derp, eh?!

I want to build mechs not build skills. This is a system for other games. The skills I am building for Assault mechs is pretty damn nasty. Tanking up and improving the weapons.

Personally I dont have time to grind and I know I am not the only one so if this game turns into one, I am completely out. Not because I want to get out, it's cause I just don't have the time. I shouldn't be punished into spending MC's just cut insane corners.

The XP values to level a mech as opposed to before just don't add up. Forget all the refunds and think ahead, you will purchase a new mech which will be crap (no skill points), stuck trying to level a lemon for AGES, then get fed up and stick to something that works.

Respeccing is just silly. Previous system there's only benefits, now there's barely any benefits and lots of negatives.
It's going to take me quite some time to replicate this onto all the mechs, they should allow a template and allow you to modify it without costs.

---

Overall you have to realise you will now to have keep similar weapon types just to adjust to the tree benefits, this means a serious re-jig on most of my mechs
And you'll have to buy all the variants if you want variety, unless you can bother to keep respeccing.

I prefer the older system IMO. Less grinder, more straight forward even if you lose the nice weapon buffs.

[Bogus]

I haven't had a time to make it onto PTS yet, but I have concern about two areas of this:

1. Operations tree. Heat management is IMO the only true must-have part of the old skill system, and we're going from something that gets taken care of after a couple of rounds to a rather time and money intensive endeavor. This is going to put new mech owners at a disadvantage for a long time.

2. Quirks and ugly-duckling mechs. Quirks were a great way to make weak mechs playable, maybe I'm just reading this stuff wrong but it appears that all of that is going away in favor of everything having the same list of possible bonuses. I actually kind of like the idea in theory, but I don't see it ending well for 80% of the mechs since a meta/comp variant will outclass them in every way. For example, it's well known that the Firestarter has better hitboxes and similar/better hardpoints than the Wolfhound but laser quirks kept the latter viable in its intended role as a medium range attrition fighter. I can certainly unlock those bonuses in the new system, but why wouldn't I just do so with the FS9 instead?

[Kamikaze Viking]

I originally posted this elsewhere but this is probably the proper place
=====================
I did some testing after an idea came up on discord

I took a mech that I'd used huge amounts in comp and had multiple of the same variant with lots of XP, the GHR-5P.
Then I fully spec'd them up on the skill tree. slightly differently, and the xp cost was also slightly different 136,500 vs 135,000.

What i learned from my testing:
XP Spent on any invidivial mech (eg by its chassis serial number) is permanently linked to that specific mech serial number, not the Variant (eg ghr-5p) as it was previously, hence if you sell that mech its associated XP DISSAPEARS.

On the Live server if you buy back a mech that you mastered previously and sold, you get it back STILL MASTERED, even though you need to refit the mech itself for cbills, you kept the 'skills'. On the PTS you LOSE EVERYTHING AND HAVE TO START AGAIN.

Even if you try to manual refund the XP first before selling it. Nope you still lose it

TL;DR: NEVER sell a mech.

It makes sense why they are doing this, because if I upgrade my Red car, it doesn't automatically also upgrade my green car just because they are the same model car.

Except that its still called Skill tree, stop calling them skills, call them mech upgrades.
You're directly modifying the function of the mech, not the pilot.

So while it makes sense, its just VERY different to how it behaved before and we know how much people don't like change. For me the biggest problem is the fact that you can LOSE XP earned on a mech (and the many many hours it took to grind it) if you sell it by accident.

--------------------
I'm not a fan of forcing people to take bad/pointless nodes to get to the good ones. If the quirks are worth having then people will take them, if they are not then fix them (adjust values or costs), don't force people to take them.
--------------------

The longer I've talked to people about this, I've come to the realisation that a key problem with the skill tree is that its unnecessarily complicated by also trying to use it to replace the module system that wasn't broken.
Remove the Modules from the skill tree leave them as they are, reduce complexity and costs.

K. I. S. S. Principle

Good Stuff PGI, Keep working on it. and after you've read everyone's comments please Explain why certain things were done. and lets run PTS2 (hopefully with a Less complex system)

[Chound]

coe7, on 08 February 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

Does the C-bill UAV boosting skills stay in the pilot skill tree? So you can still gxp per pilot skills the UAV to same level as MC UAV?

there is no pilot skill tree it's gone. The UAV boosts are per mech like everything else. you can boost the UAV by unlocking skills.

[Laser Kiwi]

Ok, i'm teir 5 nobody, c bill poor, sold a lot of stuf i didn't like at half cost etcetc.

I'm not going to try the test, i'll leave that to more experienced players, i'm just here because i loved the board game when i was a kid.

Anyway from what i can gather i'd be happy with the new system. I think i'll be able to max spec 4 mechs instead of having to max out 12 and be able to field a relatively competitive max weight drop group without too much investment.

I can still change weapons cause they'll have hardpoints cause i play mainly/(only?) is mechs and if i max out 4 direct fire mechs i should be competitive in terms of equipment if i happen to brave a CW drop.

As long as refunds for modules i have is fair and equitable and i can get my xp back on the main sets of mechs i have actually already mastered, i don't feel like i'm going to be short changed.

As a fairly new player i feel the only thing that scares new players is old players talking about how dead the games going to be, honestly that negativity is the killer cause it makes new players hesitant to invest time and maybe money, at the end of the day i want to drive a giant robot and shoot other giant robots so do as you will and i'll still play even with my crappy 0.3 KDR and all.

The thing for me is i don't like most online games, i like this one, for its nostalgia, setting and also its a unique experience compared to CS/TF and those sorts of games.

[mad kat]

One more thing these aren't exactly 'skills' are they. Granted that's been true of the system forever but these really are mech efficiencies.

Also this new system is hellishly confusing there's no linearity to it all there seems to be no logical progression line. The flow chart is a mess after having a play with it it's tricky to see what direction you have to move in.

[Laser Kiwi]

More boating?

Pretty sure most people already "boat" a certain type of weapon, usually direct fire and often autocannons for high point alpha strikes? Am i wrong?

Edited by Astrokazy, 10 February 2017 - 01:11 AM.

[theDarkFox]

Yeah it looks like its going to make meta mechs more prevalent, discourage build diversity and mixing weapons types/encourage boating.

[TheSneakyFlea]

Kamikaze Viking, on 10 February 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

...
XP Spent on any invidivial mech (eg by its chassis serial number) is permanently linked to that specific mech serial number, not the Variant (eg ghr-5p) as it was previously
...

That's my main concern with the new system aswell, we would lose the freedom to test out different builds without respecing and spendig a lot of c-bills/xp just to find out that build doesn't suit you.

[Sedmeister]

Winther, on 08 February 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

my standard module loadout for mechs are radar dep, seismic sensor, and two weapon modules = 18,000,000 Cbills. This new system will reduce that cost substantially, so it sounds good to me. That plus not having to buy three variants of the same mech make this sound like grinding out a fully functional chassis will be much easier.

But what happens if PGI do a balance pass and the mech you have configured is no longer optimal for your use? You then need to a) pay to respec, pay to unlock it all over again.

In the current system, you just swap the mods that you have paid once for and take them across to another mech that you have already mastered.

[Jimt0r]

its not any worse than the current skill system, more like an edge and flaw system rather than the current blanket of buffs

i would like to see a buff or 2 for flamers, M/G's and possibly ams

also the way the tiles looks as if they are just thrown out of the box seriously annoying. IE, having arm pips mixed with torso pips in the upper structure area

i know it was done spread out the buff application tho i think it they should contemplate the structure of the tree more

and/or bonus values for more bonus in early pips and reduced bonus in high tier pips. IE, for a 20% bonus spread out like 6\4\4\3\3 instead of 4\4\4\4\4 to promote some more weapon diversity

Edited by Jimt0r, 10 February 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[Bageldrone]

the system is interesting, the cost is ********.

[thraadash]

PGI, oh PGI.

Can't you see that very soon, if you implement the skill tree as it is, you're going to see a massive influx of refund requests for the pre ordered mech packs which haven't been rolled out yet?

People have the patience to wait until that one particular variant they want becomes C-bill purchasable. They however, do not have the patience to grind all 3-7 mechs they pre ordered with this new skill tree.

In fact, even by the time the variant becomes C-bill purchasable, some will not have even mastered half of the variants they bought in the mech packs.

So, I'm not sure if you've thought it through.

I myself, am considering if I should refund the Super Nova and Javelin mech packs I pre ordered, seeing as they haven't been rolled out yet and the skill tree as it is now, makes it unappealing to have that many mechs to grind.

Declining refund requests also have their consequences too, tread carefully, PGI, tread very very carefully.

[PFC Carsten]

Arkhangel, on 09 February 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

@YUyahoo: note the irony in what you said.... it's not Pirahna's fault there's a giant pile of Metafags in this game.

That's true. But what IS their fault is that they have been catering to exactly that type of player ever since.


PTS is no excuse to annoy your player base (who might be willing to help your development team for no additional cost!) with badly planned trash.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 10 February 2017 - 04:06 AM.

[Firefox54]

Zergling, on 09 February 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Here are the skill and module bonuses mechs have currently on live server:

Heat Dissipation = 15%
Max Heat = 20%
Startup Speed = 33%
Acceleration = 15%
Deceleration = 15%
Turn Rate = 5%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Torso Yaw = 5%
Torso Twist Speed = 5%
Arm Speed = 5%
All Weapons Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Cooldown = 12%
One Weapon Range = 10%
Radar Deprivation
Seismic


Versus duplicating those as close as possible on the PTS:

Heat Dissipation = 10%
Max Heat = 15%
Startup Speed = 35%
Cost = 19 points

Acceleration = 50%
Deceleration = 50%
Turn Rate = 30%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Cost = 20 points

Torso Yaw = 8%
Torso Twist Speed = 4%
Arm Speed = 40%
Cost = 20 points

One Weapon Type Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Type Range = 10%
Cost = 11 or 12 points

Radar Deprivation
Seismic
Cost = 19 points

Total cost = 89 or 90 points

Thanks for the comparison.

Myself (in the game for a month) and a few others have suggested the following ... why not have PGI return SP, instead of XP and no CBills, based on progress on the current system? It won't be perfect either, but it will remove the problem of having tons of XP and no CBills to reinvest in the new system.

I've not heard anyone comment on why this is not a good idea?

[Firefox54]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 10 February 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

Cost of 9.1 mill to level a mech. Currently if you added the modules on blank mech, normally that's radar derp + seismic + two weapon modules (6+6+3+3 = 18million). Ok you have saved half for one mech. Problem is... in the old system you could save money buy swapping your investments (very annoying and could have been easily fixed, but no). Logically the latter made sense, you are equipping the mech. Proposed system, you "skill" up your radar derp, eh?!

I want to build mechs not build skills. This is a system for other games. The skills I am building for Assault mechs is pretty damn nasty. Tanking up and improving the weapons.

Personally I dont have time to grind and I know I am not the only one so if this game turns into one, I am completely out. Not because I want to get out, it's cause I just don't have the time. I shouldn't be punished into spending MC's just cut insane corners.

The XP values to level a mech as opposed to before just don't add up. Forget all the refunds and think ahead, you will purchase a new mech which will be crap (no skill points), stuck trying to level a lemon for AGES, then get fed up and stick to something that works.

I'm still unclear about the comments associated with the grind for new mechs ... having played for only a month (Tier 5, not very good), I average 70K CBills and 500 XP a match. That means in three matches I have enough for a node (1500 XP and 100K CBills) and 110K CBills left over. I can get all 91 nodes for a mech in under 300 matches ... I'd also have over 30 MILLION CBills left over for another mech (which now doesn't have to be a variant or even the same weight class) or equipment upgrades for my current mech.

Right now, I've played about the same number of games ... I have five mechs, three of which have the basic tree completed, and none of my mechs are at elite and I still need to purchase four more mechs and upgrade them to get one mech mastered.

So how is the new approach such a grind for new mechs? I'm not asking this sarcastically ... I would like someone to provide a counter as to why the new approach is more of a grind than the current approach.

(I understand if you have a lot of mechs getting them back to current specs will be a huge grind ... that's a different issue)

[poltergoost]

Higher armor + structure from skills = higher time to kill = higher ammo requirement to kill.

Ballistics are getting the +ammo skill from Operations, but what about lrms/srms?

Could end up with a lot more lrm/srm builds running short of ammo...

Edited by poltergoost, 10 February 2017 - 04:29 AM.

[Meldric Ward]

Useless waste of time alltogether. If PGI would have introduced this system first, everyone would welcome the current system as the better and easier one. Ridiculous amount of time and work spent into something noone wanted.

Stop playing the game or only play stock seem to be the options to go. Oh wait... there will be a Beta of a REAL BattleTech game coming out in a couple of weeks... A shame for all the money I have dumped in this bad excuse for a BattleTech game.

Edited by Meldric Ward, 10 February 2017 - 04:33 AM.