89 replies to this topic

[TercieI]

razenWing, on 09 February 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Gibber

LOL. Yeah, I don't know anything about scouting. I definitely don't play lights in Div A comp. Nope. You tell me how it's done. Please.

[razenWing]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

LOL. Yeah, I don't know anything about scouting. I definitely don't play lights in Div A comp. Nope. You tell me how it's done. Please.

Damn, so personal. I didn't say you don't know how to play a light. I say your interpretation of terms is wrong. For example, you can insist on calling your 3pt shot a dunk. I pointed it out that it's not a dunk. Does that take away from the fact that you scored 3 points? Nope. But you're still an idiot for calling it a dunk. That's all.

[TercieI]

razenWing, on 09 February 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Damn, so personal. I didn't say you don't know how to play a light. I say your interpretation of terms is wrong. For example, you can insist on calling your 3pt shot a dunk. I pointed it out that it's not a dunk. Does that take away from the fact that you scored 3 points? Nope. But you're still an idiot for calling it a dunk. That's all.

And you're using semantics to split a hair that doesn't need splitting. Scouting is, in common parlance, anything you do to find information for your team. That definitely includes seismic (and not holding still for long, as you imply. Very quick stops. Again, I have some idea what I'm doing).

[razenWing]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

And you're using semantics to split a hair that doesn't need splitting. Scouting is, in common parlance, anything you do to find information for your team. That definitely includes seismic (and not holding still for long, as you imply. Very quick stops. Again, I have some idea what I'm doing).

So tell me, semantics aside. when you "scout" per se. Do you:

1: Stay in 1 spot listening to footsteps on the ground
2: Movement (as you said), and active explore an area to gather intel IN COMBINE with the seismic tool that you've chose to equip?

Edit:

Direct Quote:
"Seismic does what UAVs and scouts do at zero risk, and virtually no cost. Because of this both UAVs AND scouting are diminished as a result. Why send a teammate to scout behind enemy lines when you can just stand behind a wall and tell how many enemies there are? Why use a UAV that can be shot down when you can just stop moving for a bit and see where all the enemies are? "

So just answer me this, is that exactly what you do in your div A comp super star awesomo match scouting?

Edited by razenWing, 09 February 2017 - 12:29 PM.

[Deathlike]

razenWing, on 09 February 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Damn, so personal. I didn't say you don't know how to play a light. I say your interpretation of terms is wrong. For example, you can insist on calling your 3pt shot a dunk. I pointed it out that it's not a dunk. Does that take away from the fact that you scored 3 points? Nope. But you're still an idiot for calling it a dunk. That's all.

TBH, it has a lot to do with the lack of depth of understanding what you're being told.

I've heard it from enough people that "Seismic isn't useful", while all comp players would swear over an Urbie that Seismic is module #1 for them and then some.

I'm pretty sure the guys that live and die on Seismic have a better understanding of the applications than those that... have yet to put it into a higher level context.

[Deathlike]

razenWing, on 09 February 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

So tell me, semantics aside. when you "scout" per se. Do you:

1: Stay in 1 spot listening to footsteps on the ground
2: Movement (as you said), and active explore an area to gather intel IN COMBINE with the seismic tool that you've chose to equip?

You do both when applicable.

If there's a chance that there's someone else on the other side of a building, it doesn't usually hurt you to stop and wait for Seismic reading... unless there's an aggressive non-stopping push from the other end (in which case you're usually going to be punished for for it).

You could do it as well as a bigger mech (like a Kodiak) and NOT be surprised there are people around the corner. Oftentimes, people that don't carry Seismic are often surprised there are people around that corner.. and that never ends well.

[razenWing]

Deathlike, on 09 February 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

TBH, it has a lot to do with the lack of depth of understanding what you're being told.

I've heard it from enough people that "Seismic isn't useful", while all comp players would swear over an Urbie that Seismic is module #1 for them and then some.

I'm pretty sure the guys that live and die on Seismic have a better understanding of the applications than those that... have yet to put it into a higher level context.

How you want to take "div A super league" in context is up to you. I am neither claiming that seimic is useful or not useful. You can go back and read my posts, I didnt make one comment about seismic... like AT ALL. I'm just refuting the OP's premise that you can just send a light, stand in the middle of no where, and somehow, this replaces UAV and the need to actual "scout."

(Edit: Frankly, I am quite confused as to why you guys keep trying to convince me one way, when our argument seems to have no intercept what so ever.)

How you guys wan to take the argument in your super awesome league, that's up to you. Go nuts, and I really don't give a crap.

Edited by razenWing, 09 February 2017 - 12:36 PM.

[Deathlike]

razenWing, on 09 February 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

How you want to take "div A super league" in context is up to you. I am neither claiming that seimic is useful or not useful. You can go back and read my posts, I didnt make one comment about seismic... like AT ALL. I'm just refuting the OP's premise that you can just send a light, stand in the middle of no where, and somehow, this replaces UAV and the need to actual "scout."

How you guys wan to take the argument in your super awesome league, that's up to you. Go nuts, and I really don't give a crap.

You still have to use your eyes, but often times when players move from cover to cover, there's often locations (usually buildings/structures) that are pretty common for movement and it's not too difficult to make an educated guess from where you anticipate them being at.

Ideally, it's best to use a UAV AFTER finding stuff on Seismic, instead of trying to preemptively use a UAV to spot things. In fact, they are a golden combinations for scouts.

The idea is to figure out the major (or minor) location of players and to figure out in what density your opponents are. It's better to factor in which side is stronger or weaker and allocate an appropriate number of mechs/players for that.. instead of being caught with too many or too few at the important key places to be.

[Coolant]

It seems like, and maybe just me, but whenever someone complains about Seismic it is a light pilot that likes to sneak up on a mech and core them in the back. In MW4:Mercs radar was not LOS and passed thru terrain and building alike...even Passive Radar had 250m range and passed thru terrain and building alike. It was almost impossible to sneak up on someone unless they were intensely focused on a target. MWO makes it very easy to sneak up on a mech.

[MacClearly]

adamts01, on 09 February 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Not really. If it weren't OP then it wouldn't be the unanimous standard that nearly everyone recommends new players to get, coupled with radar deprivation. And it's not like it's a noob tool either, it's just as useful in top tier matches. Any time there's a near-universal choice, balance has failed.

Being the best option doesn't make something OP. In this case most of the other modules are fluff and not very usefull, except in very specific situations like the capture accelerator. The accelerator is good and powerful in its role and I use only sparingly because unlike seismic, it can be completely useless in 3 of 5 quick play modes.

So instead of thinking, 'hey that piece of equipment works well and is a solid choice compared to all this other useless stuff, how can we make it useless as well?'. How about we think in terms of 'how can we make other equipment work as well and valuable as seismic so that we have more options?'

[MacClearly]

Ascaloth, on 09 February 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

All I see here is "Nerf something because *I* don't know how to counter it". You can change the words "Seismic Sensor" for "LRMs", because this post is exactly like the "nerf lrms" posts.

If you are having trouble to backstab Assaults with your light mech, I'll give you a protip: use your JJs to approach the assault within 300m from behind. Seismic Sensor can't read flying Cheetos. You're welcome.

Yes...you can hover in, in a Viper. God I love that mech.

[nehebkau]

The OP's post made me LOL. Considering EVERY mech can carry it AND it works the same on ALL mechs -- its pretty damn balanced.

[MacClearly]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

On this, no, you are wrong. Seismic is a key scouting tool (though not the only one nor as good as it was once).

Most people will say that if you stop while in a light you are dead. The always keep moving ideology is very prevelant.

Personally only used seismic on two lights. The Oxide because I used to find a spot and then sweep out, and the Raven when I strapped erll to it and shot from afar.

I can see a use for it in going out to a corner and stopping to get information, but I only see that as useful because we play the same maps so much you can go check if the took option b over option a.

Anyways you make an interesting point, and I certainly could be doing it wrong.

[TercieI]

MacClearly, on 09 February 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

Most people will say that if you stop while in a light you are dead. The always keep moving ideology is very prevelant.

Personally only used seismic on two lights. The Oxide because I used to find a spot and then sweep out, and the Raven when I strapped erll to it and shot from afar.

I can see a use for it in going out to a corner and stopping to get information, but I only see that as useful because we play the same maps so much you can go check if the took option b over option a.

Anyways you make an interesting point, and I certainly could be doing it wrong.

"Never stop in a light"
--Mediocre light pilots

Every really good light pilot knows there are absolutely times to stop. Seismic use is one. The biggest breakthrough is knowing that you should understand the cycles of your opponents' weapons and be able to spot opportunities when they can't shoot you. That's when you shoot them. And at some of those times, to make sure your shot is completely accurate, stopping is the right move. You have to be confident and you have to have great situational awareness and it sucks when you're wrong, but it's definitely a thing.

Note: I always use seismic, even when leveling over radar derp.

Edited by TercieI, 09 February 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Aiden Skye]

fat4eyes, on 09 February 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Wall of text

[Omi_]

I think that part of the issue with Seismic is that it has very little counterplay. Sure, someone can stand still as to not get detected, but that is often playing right into the hands of the user. What if explosions created pings on the minimap?

[Deathlike]

Hornsby, on 09 February 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

I think that part of the issue with Seismic is that it has very little counterplay. Sure, someone can stand still as to not get detected, but that is often playing right into the hands of the user. What if explosions created pings on the minimap?

The only counterplay is to "take your own Seismic".

No, seriously.

[Mcgral18]

nehebkau, on 09 February 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

The OP's post made me LOL. Considering EVERY mech can carry it AND it works the same on ALL mechs -- its pretty damn balanced.

It is however very much superior to all but 1 module (and I consider it more useful, but not by as big a margin)


Now, that is because most mech modules are absolute trash, but Seismic does a lot for the mech, for next to no cost. Nothing else worthwhile putting in, and sitting still for my little WallHack is next to no risk when done properly.

[Navy Sixes]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 06:51 AM, said:

Stop bringing a spatula to a gun fight and lights won't be a big problem.

And yet here we are in a "nerf spatulas!" thread.

[MacClearly]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Your supposition is that lights are just good to be the bait - soft and chewie cookies. That's fun play for some, but not for most. I, personally, can only take so much of a bullet-hell game.

Remember, to successfully backstab, you have to get behind the enemy undetected. It may be easy to get behind an enemy, but not without him knowing.

If a blip is seen in the rear arc of any unengaged mech, that mech will turn around, ruining the light's chances of heavily damaging/destroying that mech. So, for a light to sneak in behind an enemy, it has to avoid detection of ALL 12 enemy mechs, which is rather difficult in some cases when they are moving, shooting, looking different directions, and the light does not know where every enemy mech may be or may be facing.

So, consider that it is far more than mashing W and A or S. I've played Locusts since they were released and had no quirks. I can tell you that sneaking up on enemies in 12 v 12 is challenging without seismic - it is impossible if even half the enemy team has seismic and knows how to use it.



+10 points for this idea! No free lunch.

I disagree that it is that hard to get behind the enemy. Bog, Polar, are a couple of the easiest off the top of my head and I do it on Crimson and Sulpherous a lot as well. Usually lots of cover you can work and having speed makes sweeping around pretty easy and if discovered, getting away easy as well.

Also the distance. When you have range modules your reach negates the seismic range. By the time the target sees you on seismic your first shot should already be in his back.

Plus for me I want to see lights put back to a proper size. This volumetric nonsense is the biggest nerf and bone headed as far as I have seen (been around only about a year though). Thus I don't want things to just be easy for lights. For me lights are the hardest and most skilled chassis to play and I admire those guys who do it an awful lot. It's why I Viper and Cicada more because for a potato like me it is far easier.

So if seismic is OP I don't think it is neccessarily fair to say it is because it is an indirect nerf to lights. It's most useful to see when there is a massive push building up.

The other thing that bugs me is I play this game for the neat techy stuff. UAV's, radar, ecm, seismic. It makes this not CoD for me because of the gadgets. Please don't take my gizmos away.