27 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

So, finally there. Finally trying it.

First issue/question that pops into mind is what are folks view of the tree's take on mechs that need multiple weapon systems to be viable? Are you just picking 1 weapon and skipping the rest? Trying to get a bit of all? Skipping weapons entirely?

Specific example: I am a Quickdraw aficionado. I have 13 (more on this duplication of variants issue later) They all are unique builds. One particular build is a standard engine IV-4 that I am quite fond of. It has an AC10, 2SRM4+A and 2ML. None of these systems alone seem worthy of 20 or so nodes, but having all of them working well is key to this mechs play-ability. So focus on the AC since it has the range? The SRMs as they do the most (cumulative) damage? The ML as they will be the last after I am zombied? You get the idea.

This same sort of issue is going to be applicable to one of my Shadow Hawks, Dragons, my super stock Warhammer, a couple of Atlases, etc. and I am curious how others are approaching this.


Second issue: PTS is designed to encourage build diversity? I think not.
Continuing with my IV-4 example. So I have 3 of the things (originally purchased way back when when the IS had a 240 ton limit in CW). I have currently 351,408 HXP. That ends up with 78 nodes for each mech. That is bullshjt.

It also raises several issues:

1) Quirks. These things are ranked as possibly the worst heavy in the game by many, and yet with this PTS PGI has nerfed them (see the quirks change list). Why? They suck, and yet you nerf them? That does not make sense.

2) One of the reasons that the IV-4 is considered such a POS is that its ballistics hardpoints are about knee height and it has only 2M in the STs and 2E in the CT. Thats 6 Hard points total, spread across three weapons systems. This ends up being incredibly limited no matter how you build it. Yet under the new skill tree I am being encouraged to build it in even more of a limited a fashion than it would otherwise need to be (see point 1 above) because under this system the most I can hope to master is two of those weapons systems and two is only possible if I sacrifice nodes that every single weapon boating mech (i.e. most other mechs) will be equiped with. That is in effect another nerf on top of the existing nerfing. A mech like this should not be so limited.

3) The fact that I have mastered these mechs, continued to play them over a 2 year span (admittedly casually) and yet now they are suddenly rendered less then they were. Not mastered, not complete. 350000 is not enough to make them what they were? Seriously? That is beyond unfair. It is an out right punishment and it makes me want to just skip bothering with this whole boondoggle.

I'll add to this as I play around with the PTS some more, but just looking to my favorite mech and how the skills tree is going to affect it (as currently presented) my initial reaction is that while the squirks tree is seemingly pretty cool, the way the PTS presents it and applies to my less than meta mechs and builds fills me with depression and loathing for PGI that I haven't felt since CW phase 3.

[Dracol]

Old system: pick one, two, or three weapon mods. Each mod buffs one weapon's attribute.

New system you have a choice: limit oneself to buffing the same fee stats the mods allowed in the same small number attribyres (but now its for weapon groups, not jus 1 weapon) OR sacrifice in durability, mobility, etc. To apply more buffs on weapons. These buffs can far exceed what the prior system allowed.

So, is it the fact you have more choices now the issue? Or did you want all the new bonuses as well as the old skill bonuses without making a sacrifice?

[Bud Crue]

Dracol, on 10 February 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

Old system: pick one, two, or three weapon mods. Each mod buffs one weapon's attribute.

New system you have a choice: limit oneself to buffing the same fee stats the mods allowed in the same small number attribyres (but now its for weapon groups, not jus 1 weapon) OR sacrifice in durability, mobility, etc. To apply more buffs on weapons. These buffs can far exceed what the prior system allowed.

So, is it the fact you have more choices now the issue? Or did you want all the new bonuses as well as the old skill bonuses without making a sacrifice?

I simply want what I had.

Edit:
Old system I took AC10 cool down mod, SRM4 Cool down Mod, ML cool down Mod and Radar derp.

Go look under the skills tree how many nodes it takes to get full cool downs and radar derp AND all the equivalent skills under the old system. You can't do it with 91 nodes

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 February 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Seams like there are to many nodes, Just makes it confusing especially for new players. How much they add, like twist, or speed retention is kinda vague. Perhaps for min/maxers this might be a good thing.. tweaking everything by 1%, but i think over all it complicates things to much for new players. Cutting the number of nodes but still giving the same final bonus might be a very good thing.


Even knowing how to play the game, i was very overwhelmed by the number of choices.

A few mechs i did try, really seamed to liven up, and get more mobile for sure, but it makes me wonder if it does that with all mechs. For balance, it makes me think perhaps under-performing mechs should have a multiplier. Again with less nodes this would make that an easier thing to understand and perhaps easier to balance.


Mech XP.. This one i think is a huge issue.. IMO all variants should be in the same pool. Give people a reason to try a new mech of the same class.. let all that banked XP be able to be spent on another mech with out having to pay MC to convert it. It still keeps the C-bill sink, and gives people a reason to buy mech packs and get a bonus.. Play the mech you like first.. earn tons of XP.. and play around with another.

I think pooled XP, would make people much more likely to play around with skills, and make it feel like much less of a grind



Lastly, locking certain skill trees on certain variants/mechs might be a good thing for flavor.. Perhaps some mechs should only have SRM's,, or perhaps others LRMs.. Some might only have UAC's while others AC's ect..

Some mechs might not be able to unlock mobility, or maybe higher tier mobility.. that sorta thing. For balance reasons, and to help simplify the players choices a bit.



I think things need more feed back as well.. what does +1 vector in jumping mean? Or burn rate? Does +1 mean one second? does +1 mean 1 meter? What does +3 turn mean? ext


Simplifying the tree to have less nodes, and give us more feedback to what they actually do, along with blocking certain trees on certain mechs and we really might have something that lets us customize our mechs, but keep them in a certain class so to speak.


Lastly, I dunno how this would be possible, But what about a way to unlock skills, and "test" them in testing grounds for a trail run before spending money? Basically,, Have a big ol "TEST" button option.. and then if fired up a psuedo skill tree thingy, that you can play around with the skills.. (maybe even as a brand new mech with no XP or c-bills) then you can spend away, and master it.. and play around with many different builds launching into testing grounds and seeing how things work. give yourself an idea of what you wanna build towards as you actually start to earn XP/cbills the game would save the config to launch nito another map.. and give you the option to reconfig and try again. Perhaps it could save a few configs, or a way to save your favorite so you can reference it for when you actually config the mech you own.

this would let players mess around a lot before committing the money and knowing what they really want to do.. and i think would let players have more info about how the things effect their mechs, leading to less people trying something and then having regret and needed to respect. Less buyers remorse so to speak..



SO basically..

Skill trees a bit smaller, less options but they do more, and cost more points.. (maybe 3 or 5 points per option) even if that cost goes up a bit in XP/c-bills

More feedback on what exactly the numbers do. Does the Medium pulse range get boosted by 20m? does it reduce the heat by 1 or .5? Is heat cap increased by 10 points? ect

Pool the chassis XP, giving people a greater reason to buy more mechs, and giving better value to mechpacks.

Practice test grounds for any mech,, Mastery would only work in test grounds but play around till your heart is content.


that's what i got after a few hours of screwing around... Thanks for reading

Edited by JC Daxion, 10 February 2017 - 10:49 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Dracol, on 10 February 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

Old system: pick one, two, or three weapon mods. Each mod buffs one weapon's attribute.

New system you have a choice: limit oneself to buffing the same fee stats the mods allowed in the same small number attribyres (but now its for weapon groups, not jus 1 weapon) OR sacrifice in durability, mobility, etc. To apply more buffs on weapons. These buffs can far exceed what the prior system allowed.

So, is it the fact you have more choices now the issue? Or did you want all the new bonuses as well as the old skill bonuses without making a sacrifice?

Meh. It'd be nice if PGI made a bigger effort to not penalize multi weapon builds. Boating is the most efficient way to play. But it'd be nice if there was a system that didn't marginalize or penalize multi weapon mechs.

[Bud Crue]

Next PTS observation:

I have over 600 friends on the friends list. ATM, Friday night, US Prime game time...there is a total of 1 of my friend listed in the PTS. I am atm trying to test a maxed out LBX10 Illya, I have been waiting for a match for about 10 minutes thus far with Heavy at 14% when I clicked play.

Edit:

As to this Illya build: this is the kind of mech that is going to take advantage of the current squirks tree iteration. Single weapon, single role, there was no need to master it but what the heck. Added durability quirks with all the others should make this thing way nastier than it ever was under the old system.

Edit 2: Like my Quickdraw example above, this is another mech I have 2 of the variant. Yet a mere 200K Hxp does not get me to mastery of both. That is lame.

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 February 2017 - 07:39 PM.

[JC Daxion]

That's because most people are to worried about getting 500k and a stupid cockpit item on live... Like that **** is worth anything anyway.. Never ceases to amaze me how many people complain about the events, while PTS is going on, YET PLAY THE EVENT!!

I saw.. event... then looked at it.. and said.. naaa let the noobies play it, they aren't gonna go on test anyway.. But vets will play it, and i am sure complain about how the noobies are ruining their night..

This community is baffling


that said, i don't have time tonight to play, but i will dig in tomorrow in testing grounds to see if i can get a handle on how adding nodes changes performance..

GOOD LUCK!!

[Bud Crue]

JC Daxion, on 10 February 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

That's because most people are to worried about getting 500k and a stupid cockpit item on live... Like that **** is worth anything anyway.. Never ceases to amaze me how many people complain about the events, while PTS is going on, YET PLAY THE EVENT!!

I saw.. event... then looked at it.. and said.. naaa let the noobies play it, they aren't gonna go on test anyway.. But vets will play it, and i am sure complain about how the noobies are ruining their night..

This community is baffling


that said, i don't have time tonight to play, but i will dig in tomorrow in testing grounds to see if i can get a handle on how adding nodes changes performance..

GOOD LUCK!!

I don't blame the community for that...I blame PGI. They tell us how important it is that we participate in the PTS then hold an event, with prizes that can't fail but to be more enticing than the no reward PTS. PGI's behavior...THAT is what is baffling to me.

Next PTS observation...totally spaced that the controls are default. Ooops. BTW 13 min to get a match. Others I dropped with reported 5-8 and one said instadrop.

[Dracol]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

I simply want what I had.

Edit:
Old system I took AC10 cool down mod, SRM4 Cool down Mod, ML cool down Mod and Radar derp.

Go look under the skills tree how many nodes it takes to get full cool downs and radar derp AND all the equivalent skills under the old system. You can't do it with 91 nodes

Took a closer look at it and I see where you're coming from. The most beneficial buffs one desires cost the most nodes to get to. If you didn't want cool down buffs but instead range buffs, there would be less issues. If you desired the adv zoom mod instead of radar derp, you'd have nodes left over after equaling the live version. Its only the best combination of mods/skills that can not be easily gotten or even possible to equal what can be achieved on the live server.......

I am very cool with that.

Edited by Dracol, 10 February 2017 - 08:01 PM.

[Ori Disciple]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

I don't blame the community for that...I blame PGI. They tell us how important it is that we participate in the PTS then hold an event, with prizes that can't fail but to be more enticing than the no reward PTS. PGI's behavior...THAT is what is baffling to me.

Nah, The community just needs to get over itself frankly. The event is laughably easy to do for "experienced" players. I only consider myself average, and I already finished it, so I'm sure the good players have as well. For those who think the PTS is important, they won't give a crap about an event that doesn't really have much reward-wise anyway.

[Bud Crue]

Dracol, on 10 February 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

Its only the best combination of mods/skills that can not be easily gotten or even possible to equal what can be achieved on the live server.......

I am very cool with that.

I'd be cool with it too...for many mechs even, but some mechs -like the IV-4 for example, really do need those "best combination of mods/skills" to be even remotely viable.

The new system renders them less so, even ignoring my other gripes, the fact of the new system is that a poster child for "crap mech" has been made even more crappy.

I think that as I test more, I will find others in a similar boat. I think that such an intentional or unintentional nerfing of lower tier mechs should be addressed before the system goes live.

[JC Daxion]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

I don't blame the community for that...I blame PGI. They tell us how important it is that we participate in the PTS then hold an event, with prizes that can't fail but to be more enticing than the no reward PTS. PGI's behavior...THAT is what is baffling to me.

Next PTS observation...totally spaced that the controls are default. Ooops. BTW 13 min to get a match. Others I dropped with reported 5-8 and one said instadrop.

Funny... Other games i have played when Test went up, people went to test.. no matter what was going on in game.. people wanted to test.. IF PTS is important to the community, act like it.. Might as well be american politics.. blaming everyone else....


there are people that are never going to test.. so why shouldn't they have fun? this event and rewards are so lack luster outside of the premium time, and that is so easy to get.. But man, is that really that important?

Edited by JC Daxion, 10 February 2017 - 09:54 PM.

[Ori Disciple]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

I'd be cool with it too...for many mechs even, but some mechs -like the IV-4 for example, really do need those "best combination of mods/skills" to be even remotely viable.

The new system renders them less so, even ignoring my other gripes, the fact of the new system is that a poster child for "crap mech" has been made even more crappy.

I think that as I test more, I will find others in a similar boat. I think that such an intentional or unintentional nerfing of lower tier mechs should be addressed before the system goes live.

I definitely agree that some mechs are being left behind ability-wise since they will no longer have their quirks. Hopefully PGI will give them at least some of their quirks back so they are viable

[Bud Crue]

Okay next up...Black Jack 1. AC2 4ML build. All AC squirks, not bothering with laser; rest of nodes to the normal lower torso, defensive, radar derp seismic, etc. that 90 percent of all builds will be taking.

Pressed play with mediums at 0% 4 minutes and counting...10 minutes...getting a beer, unloading the washer...

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 February 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[Ori Disciple]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

Okay next up...Black Jack 1. AC2 4ML build. All AC squirks, not bothering with laser; rest of nodes to the normal lower torso, defensive, radar derp seismic, etc. that 90 percent of all builds will be taking.

Pressed play with mediums at 0% 4 minutes and counting...10 minutes...getting a beer, unloading the washer...

just use the testing grounds dude. much faster to make some tests on how different weapons perform

[Bud Crue]

Ori Disciple, on 10 February 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

just use the testing grounds dude. much faster to make some tests on how different weapons perform

Testing grounds...BAH! If I am going to waist a Friday evening 'for the good of the game' testing this crap, I at least want to shoot at other players. (14 minutes...maybe you are right)

edit: 17 minutes. Gave up. Got some laundry folded though.

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 February 2017 - 08:28 PM.

[Chados]

That's really the only problem I have with the skill tree system-it doesn't reward mix builds and it does reward single type boating. Example, my typical Vindicator 1X/1R/1AA. I carry one ER PPC, one LRM5, an MPL or ML in the head slot, and then either 2 ML, one MPL, or 3 MG in the left arm. On PTS, I roll with PPC velocity & cooldowns. Then skill up a little in LRMs to get cooldowns for recycle time, a few of the laser skills for duration and range boosts, then the rest to get raderp and better protection. A laserboat can just dump it all into the laser tree and voila...gunbag=power. It's too bad that there isn't a way to work up three weapon types for mechs that have three type hardpoints.

Perhaps the weapon tree ought to be separate in the system, somehow. And you get X skill points that can be used in the weapon tree. And mechs with multiple hardpoint types get more weapon skill points to spend. That, and a linear tree where you could pick what you want and skip what you do not want would help a lot. I'm like Bud, when I roll a QKD-IV4 I take a SRM range module, AC5 cooldown module, and MPL range module along with raderp and cool shots. It might be nice to have that functionality in the skill tree too.

By the way, when no one is online in PTS try the Academy trials. Great way to test builds.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Sorry I can't jump on and help out Bud, but I'm just taking a small break from work right now. Yep, after reviewing the tree, though haven't tested it out yet, I think my go-to configuration will be 15 points in Defensive (no AMS), 20 points in Lower Chassis, 21 points in Mech Operations (skipping extra ammo for now), 15 in Sensors (gives me 60% radar derp and +200 Seismic), and 20 in whatever single weapon I'm planning on boating. I can't see giving up more of the defensive nodes to add to offense, especially if going for an FP drop deck.

[Bud Crue]

Chados, on 10 February 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

That's really the only problem I have with the skill tree system-it doesn't reward mix builds and it does reward single type boating. Example, my typical Vindicator 1X/1R/1AA. I carry one ER PPC, one LRM5, an MPL or ML in the head slot, and then either 2 ML, one MPL, or 3 MG in the left arm. On PTS, I roll with PPC velocity & cooldowns. Then skill up a little in LRMs to get cooldowns for recycle time, a few of the laser skills for duration and range boosts, then the rest to get raderp and better protection. A laserboat can just dump it all into the laser tree and voila...gunbag=power. It's too bad that there isn't a way to work up three weapon types for mechs that have three type hardpoints.

Perhaps the weapon tree ought to be separate in the system, somehow. And you get X skill points that can be used in the weapon tree. And mechs with multiple hardpoint types get more weapon skill points to spend. That, and a linear tree where you could pick what you want and skip what you do not want would help a lot. I'm like Bud, when I roll a QKD-IV4 I take a SRM range module, AC5 cooldown module, and MPL range module along with raderp and cool shots. It might be nice to have that functionality in the skill tree too.

By the way, when no one is online in PTS try the Academy trials. Great way to test builds.

Yeah, my view is the mixed build disincentive AND the excess cost in terms of XP are both significant problems (and he nerfs). Both aspects will act to reduce mech diversity for no good reason other than to placate PGI's obsession with shoehorning in broad based formulaic changes rather than providing mech, weapon or even tech specific changes. Not all mechs, weapons or tech are created equal but PGI...and the skills tree is just the latest illustration...just can't seem to fathom making properly scaled adjustments if there is away to force a giant overarching change to lots of things at once for good or ill.
Meh.

Last PTS observation of the evening: I really didn't notice much difference in performance with a squirked out single weapon boat in the PTS vs the same mastered mech with appropriate modules in the regular server...of course since I only got two drops in 3 hours I have no real clue how the defensive squirks play since the mechs in the training ground don't shoot back.

[JC Daxion]

sorry,. just a bit frustrated with all this... the forum is filled with mostly complaining about costs and very little about balance..

And as for the event.. I played last night for 2 hours.. the first hour i spent screwing around with the skill system.. the second hour i spent trying to play some matches.. "during prime time" and NO event.. i got in 2 matches in close to an hour.. Yet on live i could play about 8.. So what was the issue then?

People are all to eager to just bash and troll, than to really give legit feedback.. Outside of this sucks, it is going to take me X millions and X matches to master my mechs that were already mastered.. But when you get down to it, if your a vet and you don't have enough XP under this system to master said mech.. You pretty much didnt play um past master anyway.


This system needs testing, and has its issues.. But if people could actually test things, and get past their blind rage.. maybe something would actually get done.. Just check out these treads.. the angry ones have tons of responses and complaining.. The ones with very good constructive feedback half don't even get a single response.

that is why i moved my post into yours.. thought maybe others might do the same and get some sort of discussion.. But after trying to get a match in primetime.. I found it a better use of my time to go play Starcraft...