60 replies to this topic

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Adran, on 12 February 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

You don't seem to understand the way people work. I could waste my time arguing, but I think I'll just say it again. You are a rude, obnoxious ***. Hope you continue having a horrible life. Have fun spending your $10,000 on a game destined to die sooner or later. I'll continue giving actual feedback that will matter more than your insults, and having fun.

And for the record, I don't invest my money in ANY game. I invest my money in the real world, where it actually matters. Games are for fun.

Sure... and I am glad that you have leeched hours and hours and hours out of your initial $40... I personally could not afford at the time to get that tag years ago, I also did not come on the forums and say what I thought about the future changes either. So then worry about the "real world" and do not waste your time here

[Hastur Azargo]

Hey, can we now please assume that I want to be able to pick ANY of the 262 mechs I own and master it within reasonable amount of time and without paying a c-bill penny for them since I already have all the modules I want? Can we assume I want to retain my freedom of choice, the one that I have now, to be able to switch between mechs from Jenner to Awesome to Dragon to Bushwacker, without losing basic commodities like seismic and UAV stats? Can we assume that I want to buy new mechs knowing that they have some modules because previously there was some semblance of *persistent investment* in this game?

No? We just have to assume I only ever want to master 3 Night Gyrs or something?

But I digress. The meta will adjust itself and it will shove itself into people only mastering well-performing mechs. Good luck releasing Javelin and Assassin, y'all. Welcome to KDK-3/TBR-S Online.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Hastur Azargo, on 12 February 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

Hey, can we now please assume that I want to be able to pick ANY of the 262 mechs I own and master it within reasonable amount of time and without paying a c-bill penny for them since I already have all the modules I want? Can we assume I want to retain my freedom of choice, the one that I have now, to be able to switch between mechs from Jenner to Awesome to Dragon to Bushwacker, without losing basic commodities like seismic and UAV stats? Can we assume that I want to buy new mechs knowing that they have some modules because previously there was some semblance of *persistent investment* in this game?

No? We just have to assume I only ever want to master 3 Night Gyrs or something?

But I digress. The meta will adjust itself and it will shove itself into people only mastering well-performing mechs. Good luck releasing Javelin and Assassin, y'all. Welcome to KDK-3/TBR-S Online.

there will be some MDR-IIC, ACH, & HBK-IICs in there as well... there is more than one broken OP Clan mech, remember?

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 12 February 2017 - 02:14 AM.

[Chuanhao]

9.1M is not a lot if u are starting out a new chassis entirely, and buying only one variant.

9.1M is a lot when u have already spend cash or cbills on two other variants that u do may not have wanted other than to level the one u really one.

So the skill tree is a double whammy for,existing players as they have to now spend more cash to remaster what they had already mastered.

As part of the transition plan, instead of flat XP refund, I rather a conversion of whatever XP the mech already has, subjected to "mastered" cap, to slots, so we don't have to spend more cbills to convert. This is to make good the amount we had spent on variants we may not have wanted.

And please don't tell us to sell back the unwanted variants at the 1/4 price discount. It doesn't add up.

Those of us who paid cash for three variants or even five just to get one to master will feel very aggrieved. I know I am as I bought standard and reinforcement pack just for night Gyr d and linebacker d, not being remotely interested in another variant.

[Cpt Zaepp]

It is not only about the initial cost to master a chassis. Besides, as stated before, we won't be able to just swap modules with the new skill tree. Those perks have to be bought for every single chassis with XP and CB. And when you realize that a certain perk does not benefit your playstyle/current loadout you can't just swap it.

Thus, It's IMO about the costs for respeccing.

Let's say, when I decide to boat (yes, boat, because this would be the most effective way to leverage the new skill-tree) SPL instead of ML, I have to pay.

Or, another example, lately I decided SRMs, SPL and LBX to be like totally fun and Laser/Gauss Vomit to be just so 90ties and lame. So I respecced every single of my currently played chassis to incorporate my newly found obsession. It would've cost me millions.

That is just bad and takes the fun out of the game.

Edited by Cpt Zaepp, 12 February 2017 - 06:10 AM.

[T e c h 4 9]

Chuanhao, on 12 February 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

9.1M is not a lot if u are starting out a new chassis entirely, and buying only one variant.

9.1M is a lot when u have already spend cash or cbills on two other variants that u do may not have wanted other than to level the one u really one.

So the skill tree is a double whammy for,existing players as they have to now spend more cash to remaster what they had already mastered.

As part of the transition plan, instead of flat XP refund, I rather a conversion of whatever XP the mech already has, subjected to "mastered" cap, to slots, so we don't have to spend more cbills to convert. This is to make good the amount we had spent on variants we may not have wanted.

And please don't tell us to sell back the unwanted variants at the 1/4 price discount. It doesn't add up.

Those of us who paid cash for three variants or even five just to get one to master will feel very aggrieved. I know I am as I bought standard and reinforcement pack just for night Gyr d and linebacker d, not being remotely interested in another variant.

I agree that implementing a new skill tree system that penalizes current players with sizable investments in 'mechs and modules will not be good for the game or player base.

I'm not a top-tier player, I'm middle of Tier 3 right now. I've been playing this game for almost 15 months. I played on a comp team in MWOWC and Season 8 MRBC, so I am not a "new" player. I learned a lot of hard lessons in the first 6 months with respect to 'mech building and the costs associated with it. I've spent real money on this game. I have 105 'mechs and 73 modules. I enjoy this game (it's really the only game I play). I've likely invested at least 500 hours in this game just playing, and countless other hours outside the game researching, smurphy-mechlab-building, comp team coordination, etc. To take my investment and "put me back" to a state where my fleet of 'mechs is not at the same level it is right now would really irk me. I'd consider switching to another similar game (World of Tanks, Warships, etc.) as I hear alot of people are having fun playing those games (and they also play MWO, though it seems not as much).

I really hope PGI is reading these forums and paying attention to the current player base's concerns with respect to maintaining our current level if they decide to move forward with this.

[Chuanhao]

Cpt Zaepp, on 12 February 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

It is not only about the initial cost to master a chassis. Besides, as stated before, we won't be able to just swap modules with the new skill tree. Those perks have to be bought for every single chassis with XP and CB. And when you realize that a certain perk does not benefit your playstyle/current loadout you can't just swap it.

Thus, It's IMO about the costs for respeccing.

Let's say, when I decide to boat (yes, boat, because this would be the most effective way to leverage the new skill-tree) SPL instead of ML, I have to pay.

Or, another example, lately I decided SRMs, SPL and LBX to be like totally fun and Laser/Gauss Vomit to be just so 90ties and lame. So I respecced every single of my currently played chassis to incorporate my newly found obsession. It would've cost me millions.

That is just bad and takes the fun out of the game.

I too would like it if one is able to re-spec at will.

but thus far, I don't really see that I will be re-specing much. This is as even if I have spec SRMs for say a Linebacker D, If I really wanted to play PPCs on it, I just forgo the benefits of PPC, but I still have the benefits of Mobility, Defence, Sensors.

Weapon specific specs are just one of the many categories. And I think the other categories matter somewhat a bit more sometimes

[Kdogg788]

T e c h 4 9, on 12 February 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

I really hope PGI is reading these forums and paying attention to the current player base's concerns with respect to maintaining our current level if they decide to move forward with this.

This is one of my main concerns in that we should A: Not have to pay to reapply XP to every mech we own, and B: In theory shouldn't have to pay Cbills on top of XP anyways. Just limit the number of module nodes you can use and buff the weak ones into relevance. Yeah it takes another 21k XP to get to master over elite now, but elite is all you need right now to get those skills. The fair comparison here would be time to elite now vs. time to master in the proposed system.

Saying that we need to concentrate on only one variant instead of three makes no sense when we've been doing this for four years AND PGI's sales model is based on this. Limiting the number of mechs that people want to play and greatly expanding the amount of time individual mechs take to level is just plain bad for sales. Why buy a mech pack for $80 if the time to level those 12 mechs you pay real money for is greatly increased because you cannot focus those Cbill earnings on upgrades right away and you can't save for more mechs with Cbills, therefore convincing you not to buy mech bays.

-k

[Flitzomat]

OP, you are describing a behaviour that earns PGI exactly zero, nada, niente, zip, null money. All the Mechbays and packages were sold to the many Mechcollectors.
How could they even come up with a new economic system that favours the "I won´t even buy a mechbay to support the game I like"-attitude?

Mechcollectors unite!

Edited by Flitzomat, 13 February 2017 - 05:53 AM.

[reflectorjones]

Cementi, on 11 February 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Do you really think it is the norm for people to have 200 plus mechbays and over 150 mechs? I do but I doubt the majority of people do. The point I was making is that the new system is no where near as bad as people are making out. Sure those of us with 150 mechs are gonna have it a bit rough but do you honestly play all 150 regular enough to worry about needing them competitive? I know I don't. I have a core group of mechs. The others are mostly for goofing around and I upgrade them with modules when I feel like it. Swapping modules to those mechs for how little I played them was a waste of time. Fact is most of those mechs I would not have even bothered with if I did not have to buy 3 of the same chassis.

Slambot you claim that you will need 2 billion to master every mech. That means you claim to have 219+ mech which is fine. You say you are expecting a refund of about 770 million cbills. That means that currently you have about enough modules kicking around to have 51 mechs fully modded out. No where near your 219. Now if you are really concerned about having all 219 mechs of yours fully competitive at all times then you must play more module hunter than you do MWO. Now lets take that 770 million to the new system. Hmmm seems like you will get a refund that will allow you to fully mod out 84 mechs. On top of the extra 33 fully mastered and modded mechs you will be able to play mwo more than module hunter therefore earning more cbills. Oh and you know the mechs you do master out will have access to more modules than your current mechs would have been able to equip.

I am not saying the system is perfect. There are a number of things I would tweak, mostly in the mechanics but I am ok with the core concept. Respec costs are certainly too high as you have to pay to unplug and pay to replug them in so you are getting double taxed. However the core cost itself is no where near as bad as people are claiming and thats the part that bugs me.

Not all of us play competitive, some of us are casuals that DO play our inventory. Even more of a shocker will come when I'm piloting a nerfed into the ground Jenner against said competitive players.

[Mechteric]

I have 50+ mechs, and only about 10 million CBills right now (since I usually spend my CBills on new mechs after I earn enough). It may jump up another 20 Million at best after refunds from modules.

So I'd only have enough money to master 3 of my mechs. That is around 5% of my mechs.


The thing is, they should be encouraging CBills to be used to buy new mechs, since the more mechs you have the more time you have to spend getting XP to level them all up. It just makes no sense to make us also sink CBills into leveling up, other than as a cruel grindy experience.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 13 February 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[DoctorZuber]

OP is describing, quite accurately, how intimidating this game truly is to a new player. This game is stupidly scary to get started in.

A typical new player, is going to jump into the game, not really understanding that this massive influx of bonus c-bills that is being dumped at them is a limited time offer and quickly purchase their first few mechs, all of different types, to try out different things. Then the c-bills from the first 25 games run out, and they learn about the three mech rule.

So now they've got a difficult decision to make on a game they really aren't so sure about yet.

After learning these harsh realities, and while trying to grind out their first trio of mechs, many players just quit the game and never come back. If you want people to spend $$$ on a free to play game, they first have to like the game. The 3 mech formula, has always been bad for that.

This new single mech progression is actually better for a new player in every possible way.
You can use all four mech bays, for four different mechs to get a broader perspective of the game.
You can then focus on mastering the mech that you enjoy the most.

Most importantly, you give a new player time. More time spend playing the game, gives them more time to love the game. Which makes them much more likely to actually spend $$$ on the game.

Yes, as skill trees are currently done, there are some downsides for hardcore veterans who have spent large amounts of $$$ on this game. I expect PGI will be looking at ways to soften that blow a bit. But don't tell me for an instant, that this is going to be bad for new players, because that is simply not true.

Edited by DoctorZuber, 13 February 2017 - 11:07 AM.

[Mechteric]

DoctorZuber, on 13 February 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yes, as skill trees are currently done, there are some downsides for hardcore veterans who have spent large amounts of $$$ on this game. I expect PGI will be looking at ways to soften that blow a bit. But don't tell me for an instant, that this is going to be bad for new players, because that is simply not true.

But it is bad for new players just the same, because they'll have to spend even more time grinding out the CBills to skill up their mechs (and also the weapons and engines they need to optimize them), while the Veterans who happen to have loads of CBills around will not really be affected. It only serves to slow down the progression of new players, especially since new players tend to earn less money per match already.

[Kdogg788]

Exactly, I wouldn't have all the nodes unlocked under this system but at least I have all of my mechs set up with engines, DHS, weapons, etc. without needing to worry about skill Cbill cost as well.

-k

[naterist]

up the grind a tiny bit, and make respec'ing cost its current fee to remove nodes but putting the nodes back on werever you want after initial purchase is free. respecing should be like chaninging endo or ferro i think, cost wise, so about 1mill or .75 mill, if you do a total respec of everything.

as for initial purchase, ya, this is cheaper by buttloads, and i was one of those guys who bought modules for every mech, becuase i do alot of FW, and i never know what mechs im going to put in my deck each game, so its easier to have them all set and ready to go. in that respect this system is craptons cheaper.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

DoctorZuber, on 13 February 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

OP is describing, quite accurately, how intimidating this game truly is to a new player. This game is stupidly scary to get started in.

A typical new player, is going to jump into the game, not really understanding that this massive influx of bonus c-bills that is being dumped at them is a limited time offer and quickly purchase their first few mechs, all of different types, to try out different things. Then the c-bills from the first 25 games run out, and they learn about the three mech rule.

So now they've got a difficult decision to make on a game they really aren't so sure about yet.

After learning these harsh realities, and while trying to grind out their first trio of mechs, many players just quit the game and never come back. If you want people to spend $$$ on a free to play game, they first have to like the game. The 3 mech formula, has always been bad for that.

This new single mech progression is actually better for a new player in every possible way.
You can use all four mech bays, for four different mechs to get a broader perspective of the game.
You can then focus on mastering the mech that you enjoy the most.

Most importantly, you give a new player time. More time spend playing the game, gives them more time to love the game. Which makes them much more likely to actually spend $$$ on the game.

Yes, as skill trees are currently done, there are some downsides for hardcore veterans who have spent large amounts of $$$ on this game. I expect PGI will be looking at ways to soften that blow a bit. But don't tell me for an instant, that this is going to be bad for new players, because that is simply not true.

the $hitastic thing that is the Rule of Three being removed is an entirely different thing than the PTS... it is an artificial factor that PGI could remove whenever they want to

[Rogue Jedi]

counter arguement for the OP,
lets say a new player buys a 50 tonner mastery bundle, and decides to buy 1 radar deprivation to share between them because (s)he was frustrated by LRMs, also needs DHS for 2 variants, and endo for 1 varient, the engine which came with the Champion is fine for all 3 varients ^{(in the majority of cases)}, so that is 3.5 million spent on upgrades + 6 million for the module so far that is 9.5 million cbills and 15k xp, then lets say (s)he takes the 3 Mechs to full elite, not master because (s)he has no interest in spending on more modules for now, that is 107250xp + 15k GXP and 9.5 million cbills spent

now lets say that same player wants to master the 3 Mechs under the new system, that is the same 3.5 million on upgrades, radar dep is no longer available as a module but instead embeded into the skill tree.
so now for the skill tree, that is 27.3 million cbills and 409500 xp, making the total 30.8 million cbills and 409500 xp, or almost 4 times the XP and allmost 3 times the Cbills, now bear in mind 100,000 cbills and 1,500 xp is about what a new player is likely to be earning per match

.
I agree the new skill tree gives more potential benefits than the current skill line with rolling the modules into the tree, but the fact remains that a player who buys a pack, investing money into the game has about 3 times the work to fully unlock their Mechs skills ^{(and if I puy a pack I at least want to try all varients and the only fair test is when elited so I can compair to other owned Mechs)}, and then will have little or no money to purchase the next Mech.

I understand and respect your viewpoint but do not agree with it, sorry

edit, to fix error pointed out in post below

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 13 February 2017 - 03:37 PM.

[Baulven]

Rogue Jedi, on 13 February 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

counter arguement for the OP,
lets say a new player buys a 50 tonner mastery bundle, and decides to buy 1 radar deprivation to share between them because (s)he was frustrated by LRMs, also needs DHS for 2 variants, and endo for 1 varient, the engine which came with the Champion is fine for all 3 varients ^{(in the majority of cases)}, so that is 3.5 million spent on upgrades + 6 million for the module so far that is 9.5 million cbills and 15k xp, then lets say (s)he takes the 3 Mechs to full elite, not master because (s)he has no interest in spending on more modules for now, that is 107250xp + 15k GXP and 9.5 million cbills spent

now lets say that same player wants to master the 3 Mechs under the new system, that is the same 3.5 million on upgrades, radar dep is no longer available as a module but instead embeded into the skill tree.
so now for the skill tree, that is 27.3 million cbills and 409500 xp, making the total 30.8 million cbills and 409500 xp, or almost 4 times the XP and allmost 3 times the Cbills, now bear in mind 100,000 cbills and 15,000 xp is about what a new player is likely to be earning per match

.
I agree the new skill tree gives more potential benefits than the current skill line with rolling the modules into the tree, but the fact remains that a player who buys a pack, investing money into the game has about 3 times the work to fully unlock their Mechs skills ^{(and if I puy a pack I at least want to try all varients and the only fair test is when elited so I can compair to other owned Mechs)}, and then will have little or no money to purchase the next Mech.

I understand and respect your viewpoint but do not agree with it, sorry

15,000 xp per match? On a good match where I hit 300k I earn 4k xp. On an average 150-200k match it is 2-2.5k

[Rogue Jedi]

Baulven, on 13 February 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

15,000 xp per match? On a good match where I hit 300k I earn 4k xp. On an average 150-200k match it is 2-2.5k

sorry, decimal point in the wrong place, should be 1,500

[Cementi]

First off Zuull, saying f2p players are irrelevant is just stupid. How do you think f2p players become paying players? They try the game and if the experience is good they decide to invest in the game. MWO has a terrible new player experience which is why most of the people here are battletech fans from previous titles or table top. Those that do not fit that category have usually (not always) been referred to this game by friends that do fit those categories. Even then it is a challenge to get people to stay with the game. As a matter of fact several people I got into the game liked it but had no urge what so ever to grind out multiple versions of the same mech when they had only 4 mechbays. A couple of them have flat out told me to let me know when the skill tree drops as they plan on trying the game again because the rule of 3 is gone.

Rogue Jedi, not sure I do not have time to log in and check but I think you can get full radar derp for less than 20 points. However even if it does cost 20 points that is only 2 m per mech. Which equals the same investment to have radar derp on three mechs vs the current only having a module to have to swap every time you want to switch mechs. On top of that you will get much much more than just radar derp, go take a look.

Doctor Zuber, thanks for getting it.

Finally to anyone saying that they have X amount of mechs master but now will only be able to master Y amount. Well that is not really a mastered Mech. That's nothing more than a half measure or work around.

Respec double taxing is to much. That is the only part of the cost that I will agree is a problem. Initial cost is fine, paying to pull points out is fine. The problem is paying to put the points back in.