34 replies to this topic

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Kdogg788, on 12 February 2017 - 05:11 AM, said:

The proposed system encourages nothing but boating because you can only skill up one weapon group at a time and viably only one if you want to apply a decent amount of nodes to the other trees.

-k

True, I keep repeating everywhere we should just have one weapon tree with nodes that are universal, just like current fast fire skill is universal and apply to everything. This topic is just about a different aspect of boating.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 12 February 2017 - 06:04 AM.

[Ragedog4]

I want to support it but Gauss PPC builds break it way too much.

[Kuaron]

ragedog4, on 12 February 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I want to support it but Gauss PPC builds break it way too much.

Gauss and PPC have their own skills, there is no light/small version of both yet, it is clear from the start that they are used alone or in pairs at most. This means their behaviour would be considered in their skills. One could even exclude them from the suggested rule.

[cazidin]

Nice idea but it has problems that are beyond PGI's capability to fix or balance for.

[Exard3k]

Isn't the problem already solved with Quirks on mechs? Number of hardpoints, hardpoint locations and so.....

We have this represented in quirks right now and they are still there as inherent quirks on the PTS. So they already have a bonus for special disadvantages.

Edited by Exard3k, 12 February 2017 - 04:43 PM.

[Chound]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 February 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

Just as the Topic says,

many of the Trees seem to be identical,
a LCT with 1E should not have the same Quirk %s as a LCT with 6E,
i think Mechs with Fewer Hardpoints should get higher Quirk %s,

=0=Formula=0=
(#HardPoints + 1 / #HardPoints)

LCT-1V = 1Energy
(1E +1 / 1E = 2.00)
all Energy Quirks x2.00,

LCT-1M = 2Energy
(2E +1 / 2E = 1.50)
all Energy Quirks x1.50,

LCT-PB = 4Energy
(4E +1 / 4E = 1.25)
all Energy Quirks x1.25,

LCT-3M = 5Energy
(5E +1 / 5E = 1.20)
all Energy Quirks x1.20,

LCT-1E = 6Energy
(4E +1 / 4E = 1.16)
all Energy Quirks x1.16,

as you can see this formula would buff Mechs&Trees with less HardPoints,
Mechs like the LCT-1V, CDA-3M, CN9-A, HBK-4H, having 1E or 1B would benefit,
and it being a formula could be easily incorporated into the Skill Tree,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

The skills tree doesn't look at numbers but types of weaons.1 ER laser or 2ER lasers are going to be larger numbers but still the same basic values. In the new systems lasers, pulse lasers, PCC have different trees in Energy but.under both systems they are still lasers and the same sdkills would apply. The only thing I have a problem with is the levels for jumpjets. trying to create levels of improvement for narc, UAV, jump jets I don't know about that. I think it should have been brances in a single tree.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

How many times do I need to say this, seriously:
SKILL TREES SHOULD NOT BE USED TO BALANCE MECHS OR WEAPONS.

Hardpoints are also not all equal and should be thought of less as a balancing mechanism and more of a flavor mechanism. Thinking of hardpoints (especially raw counts) as some balancing mechanism is how we end up with mechs like the VND-1X. Plus as Fup mentions, large number of hardpoints alone aren't a blessing and punishing smaller weapons that are meant to be boated to be useful is counterproductive.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 February 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[Fox2232]

cazidin, on 12 February 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Nice idea but it has problems that are beyond PGI's capability to fix or balance for.

Quote, on top of that. People mentioned that PPC/Gauss should be excluded.
Well:
Should I take 6x U-AC/2 or 4x U-AC/5? Which of them is stronger to begin with and which has bigger boost?
Should I take 4x U-AC/5 or 2x U-AC/10? Which of them is stronger to begin with and which has bigger boost?
Should I take 2x U-AC/10 or 1x U-AC/20? Which of them is stronger to begin with and which has bigger boost?
Would not result of this end up being worse than boating?

[Appuagab]

All these multipliers and other math won't help to balance all hundreds of mechs together, each one needs individual approach for its skills, just like with quirks.

[Andi Nagasia]

ok updated the Topic with a new Idea!

[Andi Nagasia]

Appuagab, on 13 February 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

All these multipliers and other math won't help to balance all hundreds of mechs together, each one needs individual approach for its skills, just like with quirks.

this idea started out as a base point, but it would make sense to get peope to take diffrent weapons,
perhaps it would be better to take a AC20 and 2ppcs rather than 4PPCs on a warhawk?
perhaps it would be better to mix 3SPL with 3SL on a light mech?

[Destoroyah]

I vote NO. Sounds way to complecated and has a potential for abuse. That is where quirks come in to help fix the difference from mech to mech.

Edited by Destoroyah, 14 February 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Destoroyah, on 14 February 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

I vote NO. Sounds way to complecated and has a potential for abuse. That is where quirks come in to help fix the difference from mech to mech.

can you give an example on how it could be Abused?
and this isnt for Mech Balance this is to Encourage weapon Diversity,

you could say Mechs taking 2PPC 2Gauss, but that can be Fixed with how Quirks work,
instead of having -10% Gauss Cooldown(current PTS), set it to a Max of 5% cooldown,
this would mean you have 10% Cooldwon with only 1Gauss, but 7.5% with 2 Gauss,

the formula simplifies this system and allows it to be dynamic,
after that its all just slightly tweaking the numbers to prevent unintended problems,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 February 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Increasing performance for single weapons over group of weapons is always a good thing in balance between lighter mechs and heavier mechs (e.g. Centurion with 1 AC vs a Kodiak with 4 ACs).
Not sure if this needs to be in the Skill tree, or quirk, multiplier, or base mechanic (e.g. Energy Draw or similar).


If the performance bonus diminishing return is even noticable... I'm not sure if it makes a difference...
At least in current setting, I don't think there is much of a difference if you have 5% cd bonus or 10%, as it will give your 4s cooldown only a 0.4 vs 0.2s difference, right?

I am usually too hard-nerfing for most people here, but I would rather have Energy Draw affecting multiple weapons performance (e.g. more heat+reload if firing multiple weapons) which have strong impact than to use small % differences.

I am more leaning towards an ED effect of 20-30% difference in weapon performance of single vs group.
e.g. Single AC20 with <4s cd and 7 heat and double AC20 with >6s cd (both AC20s) and 20 heat (total).
But this is not ED PTS, so I will leave it at that for now.

[Andi Nagasia]

mixed up the Stats to be more fair and in favor of 1-2 of each type of weapon,