27 replies to this topic

[DavidStarr]

I didn't see anyone address this concern yet. Did no one notice the sneaky cooldown nerf? You can take the cooldown branch of a specific weapon's tree for a total of 5% cooldown bonus. That is equivalent to the old "Fast fire" skill, except FF applied to all weapons at once. So that's the nerf number 1, it applies to loadouts with multiple weapon systems.
But I'm more concerned with the nerf number 2: where is the cooldown module? I mean literally, you now have to spend C-Bills and a lot of XP (read: grind) to unlock FF which used to be not-so-expensive to get. But in the current system you can also buff your mech by taking a cooldown module, and with the PTS you no longer can.

Am I missing something?

[Fox2232]

There are 16 pages of topics and at least 20 topics which mention this. And most are same as this one...
Saying: "I've been nerfed."
- - - -
So, fyi:
Cooldowns are bit worse, heatsink capacity is bit worse, and heat dissipation is bit worse. Not a nerf, but balancing to achieve higher TTK.
On top of that there are Armor and Structure Nodes... For Everyone to pick according to their desire.
- - - -
Now Question:
If your dps and cooling remained exactly same as before, but Armor and Structure bonuses were up even more, would you make this thread?
- - - -
You know, it would still make TTK as high as PTS has. But you would have all numbers same or bigger. So is this actually nerf or balancing?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Fox2232, on 12 February 2017 - 02:38 AM, said:

There are 16 pages of topics and at least 20 topics which mention this. And most are same as this one...
Saying: "I've been nerfed."
- - - -
So, fyi:
Cooldowns are bit worse, heatsink capacity is bit worse, and heat dissipation is bit worse. Not a nerf, but balancing to achieve higher TTK.
On top of that there are Armor and Structure Nodes... For Everyone to pick according to their desire.
- - - -
Now Question:
If your dps and cooling remained exactly same as before, but Armor and Structure bonuses were up even more, would you make this thread?
- - - -
You know, it would still make TTK as high as PTS has. But you would have all numbers same or bigger. So is this actually nerf or balancing?

Except since it applies equally it is still a Nerf... a IS mech nerf, since Clan mechs have greater firepower then the reduction of quirks and cooldown times affects IS more than Clan. The TTK is not substantially higher in any competitive IS mech since an XL Check still kills them & 2 ML shots worth of Armor/Structure does not change that fact, that it is never a "check?" but an outright intentional killing. So until isXL does not kill a mech on a ST loss than any mention of balance is pure bull$hit.

[Fox2232]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 February 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Except since it applies equally it is still a Nerf... a IS mech nerf, since Clan mechs have greater firepower then the reduction of quirks and cooldown times affects IS more than Clan. The TTK is not substantially higher in any competitive IS mech since an XL Check still kills them & 2 ML shots worth of Armor/Structure does not change that fact, that it is never a "check?" but an outright intentional killing. So until isXL does not kill a mech on a ST loss than any mention of balance is pure bull$hit.

You do not have to call it BS just because it promotes teamplay. And just because it does not address any or all things you personally want to boost you.

I could have been running around naked and yell: "End of the World is Coming! Clan Weapons are Blown off the mech in one Alpha!"
- - - -
fyi, as a Battlemech pilot, you have a choice to pick engine. You have a choice to pick all your weapons, gear, endosteel, fero, double, ... And at the end you pick engine to exactly fit the tonnage.
As a Clan Pilot, you get some Fixed XL engine, Armor type, heat sink type, And structure type. That means you are not able to balance weight vs slots at all. And you pick your weapons and gear around those constraints.
- - - -
Those are pretty brutal trade-offs. And there are more, like Clan lasers having not only 40% less health but 8% more heat generated per dps on same weapon.
So yes, IS needs more weapons to do same dps. But even while having more weapons, it will generate less heat with same dps.
(In other words Clan laser configuration equal in dps to IS laser configuration will overheat 8% sooner.)
- - - -
And why does Clan have smaller and lighter weapons? As written before: "Because they can't trade armor/heatsink/structure/engine type to create perfect fit."

[DavidStarr]

Fox2232, on 12 February 2017 - 02:38 AM, said:

On top of that there are Armor and Structure Nodes... For Everyone to pick according to their desire.

As if there is someone among us who doesn't realize that everyone will pick all the armor and structure nodes at the expense of some other stuff. Some customization choice right here

For one, if I was PGI, I wouldn't release two huge changes simultaneously (PTS and TTK increase).

P. S. I get what you mean by it not being a nerf since it applies equally to everyone. But it is an indirect nerf towards those people who invested C-bills (= time or $) into cooldown modules relative to those who didn't. I suppose I should welcome this change because among 18 of my owned mechs, only one had cooldown module. But my experience of PTS QP matches had been strictly negative so far - I do much worse than normal.

Edited by DavidStarr, 12 February 2017 - 03:32 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Fox2232, on 12 February 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

You do not have to call it BS just because it promotes teamplay. And just because it does not address any or all things you personally want to boost you.

I could have been running around naked and yell: "End of the World is Coming! Clan Weapons are Blown off the mech in one Alpha!"
- - - -
fyi, as a Battlemech pilot, you have a choice to pick engine. You have a choice to pick all your weapons, gear, endosteel, fero, double, ... And at the end you pick engine to exactly fit the tonnage.
As a Clan Pilot, you get some Fixed XL engine, Armor type, heat sink type, And structure type. That means you are not able to balance weight vs slots at all. And you pick your weapons and gear around those constraints.
- - - -
Those are pretty brutal trade-offs. And there are more, like Clan lasers having not only 40% less health but 8% more heat generated per dps on same weapon.
So yes, IS needs more weapons to do same dps. But even while having more weapons, it will generate less heat with same dps.
(In other words Clan laser configuration equal in dps to IS laser configuration will overheat 8% sooner.)
- - - -
And why does Clan have smaller and lighter weapons? As written before: "Because they can't trade armor/heatsink/structure/engine type to create perfect fit."

Except your entire point is dumb... Clan lasers and IS lasers are NOWHERE near each other, since cERSL is functionally an IS ML and cERML is functionally an IS LL. So no... they cant because they are OMNIMECHS who get to put in whatever Omnipods they want, it is sheer frustration that people who can not walk and chew gum at the same time still get to comment.

It is a brutal trade off to choose between speed/mobility/firepower and survivability... it is a mild inconvenience to work around fixed equipment. An inconvenience that has not prevent Clan mechs from dominating the top spots of chassis in every weight class. So anyone crying about how omnimechs have the same or even in the same ballpark issues as IS mechs, clearly has absolutely nothing that should ever be said out loud where other people can hear them or write anything down where other people can read it.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 12 February 2017 - 03:38 AM.

[Fox2232]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 February 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

Except your entire point is dumb... Clan lasers and IS lasers are NOWHERE near each other, since cERSL is functionally an IS ML and cERML is functionally an IS LL. So no... they cant because they are OMNIMECHS who get to put in whatever Omnipods they want, it is sheer frustration that people who can not walk and chew gum at the same time still get to comment.

It is a brutal trade off to choose between speed/mobility/firepower and survivability... it is a mild inconvenience to work around fixed equipment. An inconvenience that has not prevent Clan mechs from dominating the top spots of chassis in every weight class. So anyone crying about how omnimechs have the same or even in the same ballpark issues as IS mechs, clearly has absolutely nothing that should ever be said out loud where other people can hear them or write anything down where other people can read it.

In numbers, Small lasers are ones where Clan has greatest benefits since heat per dps is close to equal:
Basic Values for 1 Weapon (last 5 values are actually those which affect gameplay):

Spoiler

Small Laser	Clan	IS
Slots	1	1
Tons	0.5	0.5
Damage	5	3
Heat	3	2
Cooldown	2.25	2.25
Duration	1	0.75
Max. Range	360	300
Opt. Range	200	150
Health	5	7.5
DPS	1.54	1
Heat/DPS	1.95	2

Then you have Clan with 4 Small Lasers vs IS with 6 Small Lasers:

Spoiler

Small Laser	4*Cl	6*IS
Slots	4	6
Tons	2	3
Damage	20	18
Heat	12	12
Cooldown	2.25	2.25
Duration	1	0.75
Max. Range	360	300
Opt. Range	200	150
Health	20	45
DPS	6.15	6
Heat/DPS	1.95	2

So, what's the result?
Clan invests 2 less weapon slots, 1 less ton. Gains 20% maximum range and 33% Optimum range. Has 2.5% higher dps and generates 2.5% less heat.
And paying measly cost of having in this configuration 55.6% less health.

This is worst case scenario for IS where Clan has quite questionable advantage.
As after exchange of Alfa-Strikes chances are that IS DPS will remain same while Clan's will go down.
And while one can say that range is great advantage, I actually prefer Pulse lasers due to better Heat/DPS values. As range advantage is really not as much dependent on your skill as it is on enemy's skill to use terrain and get right into your back/face.

Edited by Fox2232, 12 February 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[Spunkmaster]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 February 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Except since it applies equally it is still a Nerf... a IS mech nerf, since Clan mechs have greater firepower then the reduction of quirks and cooldown times affects IS more than Clan. The TTK is not substantially higher in any competitive IS mech since an XL Check still kills them & 2 ML shots worth of Armor/Structure does not change that fact, that it is never a "check?" but an outright intentional killing. So until isXL does not kill a mech on a ST loss than any mention of balance is pure bull$hit.

Hmmm... The IS vs Clan debate. The clans do have an advantage here, though much less now with the recent nerfs and now the PTS. In FP, if the IS team can get within their optimal fighting range, without taking a lot of damage, I think it's going to be a close fight. It will be interesting to see. It may simply be up to pilot skill and errors now.

[BigScwerl]

I bit of a NERF for Cooldown??

Lets see, I'm going to do the math on the Clan LBX 10 - You can achieve 5% cooldown via the mech skill, and 12% via the pilot skill system with a module. Thats a 17% cooldown on the LBX.

Currently, the skill tree system offers 0.8 in 5 levels.... That is 4% Cooldown. FOUR PERCENT.

This isn't just a nerf, it is a stupid game killing mechanic.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

BigScwerl, on 12 February 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

I bit of a NERF for Cooldown??

Lets see, I'm going to do the math on the Clan LBX 10 - You can achieve 5% cooldown via the mech skill, and 12% via the pilot skill system with a module. Thats a 17% cooldown on the LBX.

Currently, the skill tree system offers 0.8 in 5 levels.... That is 4% Cooldown. FOUR PERCENT.

This isn't just a nerf, it is a stupid game killing mechanic.

You get 4 of them in a KDK-3 with a huge engine and lots of ammo... it being a ONE PERCENT difference between a Mauler or Slepnir is laughable at best when comparing

[Flying Blind]

I am 1000% ok with this nerf. in fact I think it was DESPERATELY needed.

in fact it's not really a nerf at all since it effects ALL mechs equally. yeah I know clan mechs only get 4% fast fire while IS get 5% oh damn what ever will we do.

fact is the combat in the PTS is more fun and feels more like Battletech than MWO has in a long time.

there are plenty of problems in the skill tree, this isn't one of them

[Cato Phoenix]

People have noticed it.

I've seen mixed reactions. Some are fine with it for the blanket TTK reduction, others are against their shootiness decrease.

[DavidStarr]

Flying Blind, on 13 February 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

the combat in the PTS is more fun

No it's not. I doubt this is solely because of the change in question (if at all), but every mech I've tried on PTS so far is a complete disaster.
So far I have not been able to pinpoint the reason for that, but the PTS battles are an awful experience. It feels as if all the mechs are tankier while mine is more fragile - not matter which mech I play.

Edited by DavidStarr, 13 February 2017 - 08:36 AM.

[VanillaG]

BigScwerl, on 12 February 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

I bit of a NERF for Cooldown??

Lets see, I'm going to do the math on the Clan LBX 10 - You can achieve 5% cooldown via the mech skill, and 12% via the pilot skill system with a module. Thats a 17% cooldown on the LBX.

Currently, the skill tree system offers 0.8 in 5 levels.... That is 4% Cooldown. FOUR PERCENT.

This isn't just a nerf, it is a stupid game killing mechanic.

All they did is functionally remove the cool down modules for weapons and force you invest skill points in unlocking a specific weapon. It dramatically lowers the difference between a new player and veteran player in regards to DPS. Like the others have said, it increases TTK since you can't continuously spam the fire button.

[DavidStarr]

VanillaG, on 13 February 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

It dramatically lowers the difference between a new player and veteran player in regards to DPS.

Exactly!
In theory, I should welcome the change since I only ever bought one cooldown module (for lurms, LOL). But as I already mentioned, for me PTS battles are nothing short of a disaster.

[BigScwerl]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 13 February 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

You get 4 of them in a KDK-3 with a huge engine and lots of ammo... it being a ONE PERCENT difference between a Mauler or Slepnir is laughable at best when comparing

I'm not pointing out the Clan/IS differences, IS can have 1% better cooldown, thats fine. I'm saying that 4 or 5% is laughable! its not even worth it!

That improves cooldown an an AC 20 or Gauss to 3.84 seconds instead of 4. is that even a thing?

Edited by BigScwerl, 13 February 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[VanillaG]

DavidStarr, on 13 February 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Exactly!
In theory, I should welcome the change since I only ever bought one cooldown module (for lurms, LOL). But as I already mentioned, for me PTS battles are nothing short of a disaster.

Git gud? Keep in mind that there is absolutely no match making turned on in the PTS so you could be getting rolled by larger tonnage and/or better players.

A lot of veteran players will have some serious muscle memory to overcome with the new system. It looks like the days of boats popping off large alpha strikes and torso twisting during cooldown are over. Players are going to have to be more strategic about when and how they fire off their weapons.

BigScwerl, on 13 February 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not pointing out the Clan/IS differences, IS can have 1% better cooldown, thats fine. I'm saying that 4 or 5% is laughable! its not even worth it!

5% is exactly what you get from the current Fast Fire from the skill tree. The only difference is in the new tree it is specific to a weapon type instead of all weapons.

[DavidStarr]

VanillaG, on 13 February 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

It looks like the days of boats popping off large alpha strikes and torso twisting during cooldown are over.

That could be (because of the supposed armor/structure buffs). But on the other hand, this change hits DPS builds harder than alpha builds.
Also, that doesn't explain the string of my personal failures on the PTS since I mostly play DPS brawlers.

By the way, did you consider that the TTK increase is an indirect nerf to C-Bills and XP earnings per hour, since the matches will on average become longer?

Edited by DavidStarr, 13 February 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[MechaBattler]

I honestly believe the Skill tree is an attempt to curtail the rising power creep. They've tried twice before with new mechanics. And they were lambasted by the community for daring to move the game away from super alphawarrior online. That now they've turned to lower cooldown and heatcap/dissipation as a way of increasing TTK. Combine this with everyone getting armor and structure skills.

They plan to introduce new weapons to the game, some of which have even more firepower. I think they're justified in trying to nerf cooldown and increase survivability.

I don't care as much about cooldown nerfs.

[BigScwerl]

VanillaG, on 13 February 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

5% is exactly what you get from the current Fast Fire from the skill tree. The only difference is in the new tree it is specific to a weapon type instead of all weapons.

Yes, 5% from the Skill tree, but 12% cooldown from a module which will no longer exist!