150 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

No NGNG, though. They have been singularly unhelpful.

That is really unfair. NGNG have done very much for the BT community and continues to do so.

They aren't a very good pick for feedback group as long as they work for PGI obviously, which is a somewhat compromised position putting them on two chairs, but that doesn't means they aren't good and productive people.

It's not NGNGs fault that PGI isn't good at reaching out to the community in productive ways.

Bud Crue, on 13 February 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

And that right there answers your question. When they bother to involve the community they do in fact get real feedback and that real feedback be it with the Skills Tree, ED or infotech, has been a mover of how they (PGI) proceeds. It's when they don't involve the community (see mini-map, see initial flames redo, etc.) is when sh7t goes south real quick. So yes there is a point and it is one they need to keep being reminded of: the game exists because of the community so it might be a good idea to at least occasionally engage with that community even if it is a cluser f**k of different opinions and ideas.

This is a really good point.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Won't happen. Russ doesn't strike me as the type of person who would even be willing to do that these days, frankly. Same with Paul.

EDIT: Seriously, though, given how readily Russ blocks people on Twitter, you think he's going to sit down and let himself be talked to by forumites?

This, I've been blocked by russ since Closed Beta all because I warned him of backlash over one of the MANY decisions that were made back then. I wasn't even being rude, i was literally, just trying to warn him that he was going to see a backlash, and he blocked me.

[Sjorpha]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

They should never, ever have agreed to do that, for a start.

Maybe, but at the end of the day a job is a job.

If I got the chance to get paid for working with a franchise I loved I would probably say yes, so I'm not going to sit on any high horses in that regard.

The only thing that NGNG working for PGI means to me is that they can't take on the role of outside critics, but them organizing meetings and doing in house interviews and whatnot isn't a problem. PGI refusing to interact with outside critics and their failure to create productive feedback groups (as described in my previous post here) is the problem, it wouldn't be anything wrong with using NGNG as the facilitator of that process as long as it was actually done.

[Deathlike]

This thread... I love you guys! I hate some of you too, but it's OK!

Alistair Winter, on 13 February 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Also, PGI doesn't really want to interact with the players unless someone puts a gun to their head, it feels like. Ask the devs, community managers, the roundtable roundbucket, the twitter polls... there are so many examples.

That's the feedback loop that this echo chamber desperately needs.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Could I give some beneficial input? On some things, yes. Other things, a lot less so. Same is true with McGral, Quicksilver, Deathlike, or literally ANY "notable" name on the forums. None have all the answers, and none are immune to confirmation bias and agendas.

All can give some useful input though. But I just don't see Roundtables, or the like as really accomplishing a dang thing.

We're not immune.. I don't think any of us pretends to be immune. The best we can do is agree to disagree, and not get too butthurt over things

Regardless of what is and what isn't as important, the thing PGI is doesn't do well is feedback. If PGI does or doesn't like an idea, there's no stated parameters in which to be able to address the matter. Like, if X is undesirable, can we do Y? The fact that there literally is no back and forth discussion to a degree, means that we are stuck at guessing out of our arses and just become resigned to the fact that they aren't listening.

Compare this community to other games (OK, let's not go that far) like Path of Exile.

There's plenty of fanboys, haters, and all the stuff you'd find in any community. Yet you know what? The devs actually communicate feedback to the community.. even if it's regarding a chronically bad thing. Mind you, they do forget, and they are human too, but at least they talk, including their lead designer. Heck, there's even a community manager (omg, it's totally Lostech here) that does try to address stuff, including bugs in a timely manner. None of this exists here.

Even the bad stuff that goes on the game, gets a few laughs here and there and while probably would possibly get resolved in time (though realistically, some people will still be angry over it at one point or another), the community does a LOT of stuff (content creation, help, etc) that by their own nature is just that much larger than MWO's OutreachHPG would ever produce (although to be fair, POE has at least an order of magnitude's population greater than MWO and also can be literally in the top 20 games on Steam when a new league begins).


TL;DR

The reality is that since PGI doesn't really take the time to actually talk, discuss, get productive feedback only serves to show up when we get things like CW Phase 3 or the minimap (or even the current PTS) that they aren't really on the same page with anyone, other than themselves. Other games do the discussions and do it far better than PGI (it's not a hard bar to get over) and when you really keep bad lingering designs like Hoverjets (for the Highlander, which was Patient Zero), it's becomes harder over time to reconcile issues because you're building more bad decisions ontop of previously bad/worse decisions.

Actually talking to people AND acting on it would be a first step to ANYTHING productive... we don't need a repeat of the MWOWC where the original "plans" were things totally ignored from previous discussions from people that offered their opinions (like the MRBC guys) and were just made up on the go. As long as we leave it to PGI (or NGNG) to dictate what they want instead of what the players need.. we'll continue to have poop ontop of poop for things like the NPE, and at some time we'll hit a point where game stagnation isn't good enough for the regulars. That's when there's another bandaid over a gaping wound won't be the proper fix.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 February 2017 - 10:58 AM.

[MechaBattler]

::Sees Bishop's posts on the first page::

GET EM! Break the chains of evil!!!

Ahem. Yeah, that wouldn't get me picked any time soon...

But I agree with Bishop in the sense that they need to pull from the community as a whole. Not just people with the right number under their name.

[Bishop Steiner]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

EDIT: Seriously, though, given how readily Russ blocks people on Twitter, you think he's going to sit down and let himself be talked to by forumites?

I will say, most of the people I'm aware of that Russ blocked tended to hover somewhere between Troll and Cyberstalker.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I think Bishop pretty much said it all in his opening post. MWO is a big tent indeed and sometimes PGI takes the into consideration like when they introduced solo que. You would have thought it was the end of time here on the forums and the rage went on for a while after. Same with ingame Voip. The consensus here really isn't comparable to the player base because a huge number of players never post or even know the forums exist. Then Split it with Steam, Twitter and reddit and how can we find any happy center.

My suggestion is someone at PGi start polling the game itself at the opening screen. They would surely have a better representation of the bases needs. That would be far better representaion than the forums, the comp guys and the ne'erdowells with their twitch following deciding they have the only seats at the table.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 13 February 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

This thread... I love you guys! I hate some of you too, but it's OK!




That's the feedback loop that this echo chamber desperately needs.




We're not immune.. I don't think any of us pretends to be immune. The best we can do is agree to disagree, and not get too butthurt over things

Regardless of what is and what isn't as important, the thing PGI is doesn't do well is feedback. If PGI does or doesn't like an idea, there's no stated parameters in which to be able to address the matter. Like, if X is undesirable, can we do Y? The fact that there literally is no back and forth discussion to a degree, means that we are stuck at guessing out of our arses and just become resigned to the fact that they aren't listening.

Compare this community to other games (OK, let's not go that far) like Path of Exile.

There's plenty of fanboys, haters, and all the stuff you'd find in any community. Yet you know what? The devs actually communicate feedback to the community.. even if it's regarding a chronically bad thing. Mind you, they do forget, and they are human too, but at least they talk, including their lead designer. Heck, there's even a community manager (omg, it's totally Lostech here) that does try to address stuff, including bugs in a timely manner. None of this exists here.

Even the bad stuff that goes on the game, gets a few laughs here and there and while probably would possibly get resolved in time (though realistically, some people will still be angry over it at one point or another), the community does a LOT of stuff (content creation, help, etc) that by their own nature is just that much larger than MWO's OutreachHPG would ever produce (although to be fair, POE has at least an order of magnitude's population greater than MWO and also can be literally in the top 20 games on Steam when a new league begins).


TL;DR

The reality is that since PGI doesn't really take the time to actually talk, discuss, get productive feedback only serves to show up when we get things like CW Phase 3 or the minimap (or even the current PTS) that they aren't really on the same page with anyone, other than themselves. Other games do the discussions and do it far better than PGI (it's not a hard bar to get over) and when you really keep bad lingering designs like Hoverjets (for the Highlander, which was Patient Zero), it's becomes harder over time to reconcile issues because you're building more bad decisions ontop of previously bad/worse decisions.

Actually talking to people AND acting on it would be a first step to ANYTHING productive... we don't need a repeat of the MWOWC where the original "plans" were things totally ignored from previous discussions from people that offered their opinions (like the MRBC guys) and were just made up on the go. As long as we leave it to PGI (or NGNG) to dictate what they want instead of what the players need.. we'll continue to have poop ontop of poop for things like the NPE, and at some time we'll hit a point where game stagnation isn't good enough for the regulars. That's when there's another bandaid over a gaping wound won't be the proper fix.

Was never saying you guys pretend you are infallible, though at times, like any of us, getting you to budge on an idea takes a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment. Was mostly pointing out that no one player, or even group of players has "all the answers".

And there IS an undeniable trend on Mt Tryhard to dismiss anyone who hasn't graced the leaderboards of MLMW or RHoD, etc. And all groups tend to reflexively back "their own", magnify faults in the opposing view, and minimize flaws in their own.

That said, I agree. PGI, while honestly better than a lot of the big boys at at least acknowledging the community exists (really it doesn't take much...most game companies are absolutely terrible at it, and it's the exception that is good...and even rarer the ones that actually regularly implement input from players). But getting actual 2 way communication with Russ (lets face it, end of the day that is who you need to talk to to get ANYTHING done) is very difficult... and gets even more so when people constantly besiege his twitter to the point he tunes it out, too. This can be from well intended and overenthusiastic (sorry Andi) to TrollRage (Yeah, we know of what I speak), but either way it actually HURTS likelihood of getting any meaningful response.

I've had...considerably better than average success in communicating with Russ, and I'd still say that probably less than 1 in 100 tweets illicit a response of any kind, let alone action. (Am proud of the Warhammer fixes... but that was several of us actually in Livestream with Russ at the time.).

Also....love that your TL;DR is as long as your base post, lol.

[Bishop Steiner]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

I'm sure there are probably plenty of those, this being the Internet and all, and Russ is absolutely right to block them. That's what you DO with those people. (Possibly get the authorities involved with cyberstalkers too, depending.)

note...I also said MOST. There are some I don't pretend to understand...whether they posted at a "bad time" and got caught in the fallout of ot he poster QQ and flamebait (Which I have to assume is what happened Cmdr Sunset Shimmer...which still is bunk if so), but also that a goodly number of trolls.... really seem to think they are acting totally within the boundaries of acceptable behavior... while clearly NOT. *coughMadcatmkIIcough*

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Was never saying you guys pretend you are infallible, though at times, like any of us, getting you to budge on an idea takes a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment. Was mostly pointing out that no one player, or even group of players has "all the answers".

Well, I'm sure you have a pretty good idea of what I think of our balance overlord.

I feel that at some point, we do have to make up ideas for broken things... because PGI could not be arsed to do. I think that's a bigger overarching/looming problem.

The thing is PGI has to provide a direction, and we can obviously try to work in said direction. However, when you have NO direction like PGI does... then "any answer" seems like better than "no answer", and that's never a "good answer".

Quote

And there IS an undeniable trend on Mt Tryhard to dismiss anyone who hasn't graced the leaderboards of MLMW or RHoD, etc. And all groups tend to reflexively back "their own", magnify faults in the opposing view, and minimize flaws in their own.

I do try to acknowledge good non-meta builds/mechs (though those are few an far in between, because you have to acknowledge they are functional, just not the best/meta), but it's a lot of anecdotal experience that people have and haven't had (I really don't want to imagine the play in Tier 5, because it would most likely just be clubbing seals for me, and that's not exactly fun).

Quote

That said, I agree. PGI, while honestly better than a lot of the big boys at at least acknowledging the community exists (really it doesn't take much...most game companies are absolutely terrible at it, and it's the exception that is good...and even rarer the ones that actually regularly implement input from players). But getting actual 2 way communication with Russ (lets face it, end of the day that is who you need to talk to to get ANYTHING done) is very difficult... and gets even more so when people constantly besiege his twitter to the point he tunes it out, too. This can be from well intended and overenthusiastic (sorry Andi) to TrollRage (Yeah, we know of what I speak), but either way it actually HURTS likelihood of getting any meaningful response.

Yea.. that's the most critically damaging part of this process. I mean, it's one thing to retweet praise, but it's another to not accept that there are issues with your own game. To pretend there isn't (every game has flaws, no matter how great it is), is trying to argue that the sky is not blue or that the earth is flat. At some point, if you can't even level with the guy, you're going to find out sooner or later that poop will go down... how fast it will be is up to how badly the screwup happens to be.

Quote

I've had...considerably better than average success in communicating with Russ, and I'd still say that probably less than 1 in 100 tweets illicit a response of any kind, let alone action. (Am proud of the Warhammer fixes... but that was several of us actually in Livestream with Russ at the time.).

I guess, but that's not like it's moving mountains right? I mean you're affecting his bottom line sometimes, but the things that truly affect their bottom line for the long term... well... apparently that's not important until it rears its ugly head.

Quote

Also....love that your TL;DR is as long as your base post, lol.

Well, I could make it short and sweet, but it's always clear to me that the core message gets ignored by PGI either way (even if they read it, it doesn't get that far anyways). It's really up to the players to give a damn, because apathy kills a game much faster than hatred.

[Alistair Winter]

Alright, cool. Some good points made. All skepticism aside, I am genuinely curious what would come of this. Whether it ends with flame wars or whether the community can actually reach some sort of consensus on a few things, it would at least be entertaining. And if there was some sort of consensus that we could refer to on the forums and on Twitter, that'd be interesting.

If someone wants to assume responsibility and name some candidates, I'd definitely love to read about it and vote for some smart dudes. It'd make a nice change from the normal discussion around here.

And if the people involved would actually release some YouTube videos with discussion, that would be pretty interesting to watch.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 February 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Forum warrior round table....

• LRMS
  
• New mech please!
  
• No more mechs please
  
• please nerf ***** mech
  
• need more maps
  
• potato problems.
  
• buckets.

[KingCobra]

OP I would like to entertain you with (Shure thing lets do it tomorrow) but I'm afraid we cant all spend another $5 million+ on MWO to get more Minimal Viable products.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 13 February 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

I guess, but that's not like it's moving mountains right? I mean you're affecting his bottom line sometimes, but the things that truly affect their bottom line for the long term... well... apparently that's not important until it rears its ugly head.

that was mostly indicative of the depth of features successfully affected. As in, even when we do affect change, it's seldom of major impact.

And of course, some of my crusades are not as well liked by some portions, as others (Rescale probably being the biggest crusade I pushed for...and one of the most divisive). But the Warhammer, Which Zeus was the "S" model.... Urbanmech probably did most for their "bottom line" (thanks to all those who helped make that a reality)... and I do wonder if the Assassin was just to get me to shut up.... lol.

And sometimes, they take our input and take it too far the other way (Infowar, energy draw) and others are up in the air (well, they listened to the fact that Skill Tree is broken... but did they listen to how to FIX it?)

Still, I'm happy to have been able to have some impact on some things.... but... so many of the truly crucial features, our community commentary has been roundly ignored.

[Metus regem]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Forum warrior round table....

• LRMS
  
• New mech please!
  
• No more mechs please
  
• please nerf ***** mech
  
• need more maps
  
• potato problems.
  
• buckets.

So potato poster issues...

Real poster issues:

Balancing isXL and cXL properly, with out making the isXL a worse copy of the cXL.
How not to make early IS Omnis total garbage.
How to handle isUAC/10&20's with out making them garbage compared to clan versions.
How to balance RAC/s
How to make Standard engines not garbage.
How to make isFF not a total waste of slots on anything but a light and a few mediums.

[Alistair Winter]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Forum warrior round table....

• LRMS
  
• New mech please!
  
• No more mechs please
  
• please nerf ***** mech
  
• need more maps
  
• potato problems.
  
• buckets.

Hah!

To build on Tarogato's suggestion though, it may be prudent to vote ona list of 5-10 things that the community consider a priority and then let some forum warriors find solutions to these problems. For example

• Balance: IS vs Clan balance
  
• Balance: Weight class balance
  
• Balance: Skill tree
  
• Gameplay: Command console
  
• Gameplay: C-bill, XP and GXP rewards
  
• Immersion: Voice acting
  
• Immersion: Destructible cars on River City
  
• UI: Social button / chat feature

[Alan Davion]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

I think the thing with NGNG is they're really terrified that MWO might be BT/MW's last chance. And I can understand, that as BT/MW enthusiast/hobbyist press and such, that losing BT/MW is simply not an option.

And I can understand the appeal of money - I don't think that at any point there was greed afoot, because I doubt this was really that lucrative for NGNG. Money keeps the doors open and the lights on.

But god dammit.

And they have a god damned right to be scared. Look how long it took for there to be another BT/MW game after MW4:Mercs. That game came out back in '02, and MWO didn't come out until what, '12?

That's a decade between games, and we're only now finally getting around to what PGI wanted to do in the first place with MW5, so if we discount MWO that's 16 years between single player games for BT/MW. The same can be said with HBS' upcoming BT game, their game probably won't be fully released until the end of this year/early next year.

The problem is, MWO's gameplay isn't just stagnating now, it's been stagnating for years now, and that's due in part to PGI's own unwillingness to listen to and act on feedback from the playerbase. Yes there is the question of how best to choose which feedback to accept and work on and which to ignore, but the point is it has to START, period.

For the moment at least, it seems as though PGI is trying to listen to player feedback on this Skill Tree PTS, but that could very easily just be a smokescreen before they throw their arms up in the air and say "We give up" like they've done numerous times in the past.

That right there is probably the biggest of PGI's failings. Instead of knuckling the f*** down and trying to fix the shite they've broken since day one, they just give up like pansies and then try to find a quicker solution which ends up being worse overall for the game and just shoveling it down our throats.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 13 February 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

So potato poster issues...

Real poster issues:

Balancing isXL and cXL properly, with out making the isXL a worse copy of the cXL.
How not to make early IS Omnis total garbage.
How to handle isUAC/10&20's with out making them garbage compared to clan versions.
How to balance RAC/s
How to make Standard engines not garbage.
How to make isFF not a total waste of slots on anything but a light and a few mediums.

and while not as "game balance vital"

Yes, I still am pushing for them to fix and stop being lazy with dynamic weapon scaling.
How to make CW actually interesting
Ways to improve MM
Balancing Quirks between "Performance" and "Lore"
etc

I mean that is one of the issues often times...we have posters who are so focused on "what makes the perfect balanced shooter" that they ignore that it is still an IP, and as such needs to resemble that IP. Obviously, changes NEED to be made to translate from one media, to another. But so often no attempt is made to see "How can we benefit balance WITHOUT sacrificing the flavor or the game, or at least impacting it in the least destructive manner".

[Monkey Lover]

Metus regem, on 13 February 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

So potato poster issues...

Real poster issues:

Balancing isXL and cXL properly, with out making the isXL a worse copy of the cXL.
How not to make early IS Omnis total garbage.
How to handle isUAC/10&20's with out making them garbage compared to clan versions.
How to balance RAC/s
How to make Standard engines not garbage.
How to make isFF not a total waste of slots on anything but a light and a few mediums.

Alistair Winter, on 13 February 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hah!

To build on Tarogato's suggestion though, it may be prudent to vote ona list of 5-10 things that the community consider a priority and then let some forum warriors find solutions to these problems. For example

• Balance: IS vs Clan balance
  
• Balance: Weight class balance
  
• Balance: Skill tree
  
• Gameplay: Command console
  
• Gameplay: C-bill, XP and GXP rewards
  
• Immersion: Voice acting
  
• Immersion: Destructible cars on River City
  
• UI: Social button / chat feature

I am a class 2 forum warrior, these question do not belong here! reported!

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 February 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Still, I'm happy to have been able to have some impact on some things.... but... so many of the truly crucial features, our community commentary has been roundly ignored.

Welcome to MWO.

Would you like a mechpack?