9 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

There are already a multitude of posts about the generic issues with the skill tree system (costs, encouraging boating) so i wont go into that here. This is just about the mech and faction balance issues that im seeing in the current iteration of the PTS.

1) Projectile velocity. PGI, you need to be careful allowing ANY clan mechs to retain velocity quirks of any kind, because when you stack an extra 20% from the skill tree and then add a targeting computer, its very easy to stack huge velocity boni. For example the Jade Kite gets +25% PPC velocity with 8/8 set bonus +20% from a skill tree means that you could potentially get +80%!! PPC velocity with a TC7. That's 2340 m/s..

By the same token, you should not be decreasing the IS velocity quirks as much as you are. Its actually one of the better balance ideas to give IS mechs big PPC velocity quirks and not clan, because then the IS mechs get much more precise PPCs, and if the clan mechs want to match it they have to run a big TC, which then goes a long way to evening out the tonnage advantage they have for PPC builds. Either buff IS ER/PPC base velocity or don't nerf IS velocity quirks.

2) IS mechs which relied solely on weapon quirks are getting screwed over hard. The mechs with durability/agility quirks have generally kept them and can stack the skill tree durability / agility quirks on top of those, but the weapon quirks have been neutered across the board. That makes sense because there is danger in stacking weapon quirks with the new skill tree stuff, but it means that mechs (like the BNC-3M) which have historically only had weapon quirks are getting nothing to compensate and will now just suck. Compare a BLR-2C with the BNC-3M and tell me if you would EVER use the Banshee at 10 tons heavier, when its much bigger, slower, less agile and less tough. Compensate IS mechs that are losing weapon quirks with agility and/or structure/armour.

3) The differentiation between Clan and IS skill trees is not enough for balance, imo. 25% higher values on the weapon stats is probably fine, but it should be extended to higher values for the IS defensive and agility quirks too.

[Fox2232]

Projectile Velocity is something you get used to within one match.
And being concerned about PPC... What a joke. PPC, really? They are easy to aim due to no drop-down.

If something truly benefits from velocity, it is AC as effect of drop-down would be reduced.

To your 2) 3)
Yes, IS is getting "screwed" hard, but by giving them higher bonuses than Clan gets through Tree.
- Higher the bonus, bigger the loss from not taking it. Clan with those tiny bonuses has tiny losses for ignoring those nodes, but IS with bigger bonuses.
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I'd say: "Be careful what you wish for."
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While most of IS players fight all around for bigger boosts from tree. I fight for totally indiscriminating trees and for more balanced base technology (mechs/weapons).

[Widowmaker1981]

Fox2232, on 14 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Projectile Velocity is something you get used to within one match.
And being concerned about PPC... What a joke. PPC, really? They are easy to aim due to no drop-down.

It makes small differences when aiming at big slow targets, sure. But try hitting lights with 1500 m/s PPCs, then try again with 2300 m/s ones.

Lights dont like getting snap shotted by 20 PPFLD.

AC drop only happens outside optimal range, and then only noticeably at +50% or so, at which point its a waste of ammo anyway due to damage falloff.

[Widowmaker1981]

Fox2232, on 14 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

While most of IS players fight all around for bigger boosts from tree. I fight for totally indiscriminating trees and for more balanced base technology (mechs/weapons).

More balanced base tech is hard, because PGI wont mess with tons/slots of equipment, so somehow the fact that Clan mechs get 7 slot ES, 7 slot FF which gives 50% more tonnage, and smaller XLs that don't die on ST loss needs to be balanced in other areas. Skill tree is an area where they can do that, and bigger IS boni isnt a disadvantage, means they will get more for their points. Yeah you might be more upset at the stuff you miss because the values are bigger, but thats just psychological.

[Fox2232]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 February 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

More balanced base tech is hard, because PGI wont mess with tons/slots of equipment, so somehow the fact that Clan mechs get 7 slot ES, 7 slot FF which gives 50% more tonnage, and smaller XLs that don't die on ST loss needs to be balanced in other areas. Skill tree is an area where they can do that, and bigger IS boni isnt a disadvantage, means they will get more for their points. Yeah you might be more upset at the stuff you miss because the values are bigger, but thats just psychological.

And it is bigger loss to all those Clan mechs who do not have FF/ES. yes, some of those mechs do not have it.
They have many free slots and no weight allowance to place there something: Basic Mad dog = 20 free slots 60/60 tons => Standard Structure.
No choice to fine tune is really an benefit of clan in the end, right? Or weapons with 40% less life?

Everyone has something. But imagine that this mad Dog could get Endo-Steel, that's 3 ton allowance = Armor moves from 326 to 402. One additional Heatsink + 0.5 ton ammo.
It is very rational choice to use Endo-Steel if one has a lot of free slots and is at weight limit. But mad Dog instead throws away weapon. Because it is Clan advantage he has.

It is not like IS pilot is forced to take XL engine. He makes choice to take it or not.
IS picks one of so many mechs based on Hardpoints. Builds Weapons, Upgrades around weapons and Engine based on remaining slots/weight limit.
Clan picks mech based on Omnipod selection (Considers locked engine speed and remaining Slots due to Locked Upgrades). And as a Result, building Clan mech is: "pick your weapons and equipment in whatever space/weight is left due to predetermined Engine and Upgrades.)

I had 94 ton Daishi configuration because I had no more free slots. So it is not only one way that Clan mech may be hitting Weight limit due to absence of ES, but it can go other way around. And Clan Player has to live with it.

Do you think that 100 ton design mech moves faster just because you made him lighter than 95 ton mech?
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Secondly, Clan had tiny advantage before due to fast swap of hardpoint configuration at low cost of buying Omnipods. Respec of weapon tree costs 2.5 million C-Bills now.
And unless it changes, Omnimechs will become One-Time Hardpoint Configured battlemechs with locked Engine, Armor, Heat Sink and Structure Type. Or pilots will ignore Weapon nodes altogether. (Which is what I am going to do if respec cost remains too high.)

[Widowmaker1981]

Fox2232, on 14 February 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

And it is bigger loss to all those Clan mechs who do not have FF/ES. yes, some of those mechs do not have it.
They have many free slots and no weight allowance to place there something: Basic Mad dog = 20 free slots 60/60 tons => Standard Structure.
No choice to fine tune is really an benefit of clan in the end, right? Or weapons with 40% less life?

Everyone has something. But imagine that this mad Dog could get Endo-Steel, that's 3 ton allowance = Armor moves from 326 to 402. One additional Heatsink + 0.5 ton ammo.
It is very rational choice to use Endo-Steel if one has a lot of free slots and is at weight limit. But mad Dog instead throws away weapon. Because it is Clan advantage he has.

It is not like IS pilot is forced to take XL engine. He makes choice to take it or not.
IS picks one of so many mechs based on Hardpoints. Builds Weapons, Upgrades around weapons and Engine based on remaining slots/weight limit.
Clan picks mech based on Omnipod selection (Considers locked engine speed and remaining Slots due to Locked Upgrades). And as a Result, building Clan mech is: "pick your weapons and equipment in whatever space/weight is left due to predetermined Engine and Upgrades.)

I had 94 ton Daishi configuration because I had no more free slots. So it is not only one way that Clan mech may be hitting Weight limit due to absence of ES, but it can go other way around. And Clan Player has to live with it.

Do you think that 100 ton design mech moves faster just because you made him lighter than 95 ton mech?
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Secondly, Clan had tiny advantage before due to fast swap of hardpoint configuration at low cost of buying Omnipods. Respec of weapon tree costs 2.5 million C-Bills now.
And unless it changes, Omnimechs will become One-Time Hardpoint Configured battlemechs with locked Engine, Armor, Heat Sink and Structure Type. Or pilots will ignore Weapon nodes altogether. (Which is what I am going to do if respec cost remains too high.)

We cant look at Omni locked gear when considering balance anymore, because HBK-IICs, MAD-IICs and KDKs exist. That cat is out of the bag, sorry. Badly optimised Omnimechs will simply need quirks so they can compete, or PGI needs to unlock Omnis, but they wont do that.

If you had a 94 ton Dire Wolf and actually dropped into a game with it.. i dont even.. what? If your build is underweight its a bad build concept, start again.

[Fox2232]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 February 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

We cant look at Omni locked gear when considering balance anymore, because HBK-IICs, MAD-IICs and KDKs exist. That cat is out of the bag, sorry. Badly optimised Omnimechs will simply need quirks so they can compete, or PGI needs to unlock Omnis, but they wont do that.

We can't look at IS XL engines blowing up when considering balance anymore because, JR7-IIC, BNC, ... exist. Second cat is out of the bag, sorry. Badly optimized Battlemechs will simply need quirks so they can compete, or PGI has to give Battlemechs non-blowing XL engines, but they wont do that.
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I see exactly 2 flawed sentences made by you and then made by me.

That what is above has not changed a bit with this PTS. What changed is Cost for omnimechs switching weapons and then respecing weapon trees as result. This will turn many Omnimech players into Battlemech with locked Armor, Heatsink, Structure, and XL engine (Which luckily does not blow up so much.).
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There was trade-off before, it is now even bigger and considering that Clan weapons have 40% less heath with new tendency of weapons to just die as soon as possible...

[Widowmaker1981]

Fox2232, on 14 February 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

We can't look at IS XL engines blowing up when considering balance anymore because, JR7-IIC, BNC, ... exist. Second cat is out of the bag, sorry. Badly optimized Battlemechs will simply need quirks so they can compete, or PGI has to give Battlemechs non-blowing XL engines, but they wont do that.
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I see exactly 2 flawed sentences made by you and then made by me.

Except what you said made no sense. At all.

[Fox2232]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 February 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Except what you said made no sense. At all.

I agree with you on this.

Quote: "The modern meta has elevated the Banshee to supremacy with its focus on XL-viable (not gonna say safe) mechs running high-alpha mid-range lasers vomit builds."

I too think that they must be out of their minds to even suggest such thing in guide. They should always write: "Picking any IS mech will make you inferior in all aspects."
And: "No matter how many nerfs Clan gets and how many Buffs IS receives... Clan will always be incomparably stronger because their XL engines do not go ca-boom."

[Widowmaker1981]

Fox2232, on 14 February 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

I agree with you on this.

Quote: "The modern meta has elevated the Banshee to supremacy with its focus on XL-viable (not gonna say safe) mechs running high-alpha mid-range lasers vomit builds."

I too think that they must be out of their minds to even suggest such thing in guide. They should always write: "Picking any IS mech will make you inferior in all aspects."
And: "No matter how many nerfs Clan gets and how many Buffs IS receives... Clan will always be incomparably stronger because their XL engines do not go ca-boom."

AHHHHH i see.

You are a Clan fanboy so you don't actually realise that the best Clan mechs are currently a bit OP compared to the best IS mechs. Its not just the engine, its actually much more to do with the 7 slot ES/FF. And yes, i know they are locked on Omnis, but that doesnt matter to the IICs/KDK.