109 replies to this topic

[I_AM_ZUUL]

W A R K H A N, on 14 February 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

If multiple players on your team stack AMS, it does a pretty good job assuming the opposing team is LRM heavy. But a single or even dual AMS on your mech when no one else has it is a waste of time. Just going to burn though all your ammo shooting down LRM's for everyone else with very little impact on how much damage they eat...And you may just find yourself out of ammo when missiles are firing on you and you actually need it.

Also I rather not have my position given away everytime the enemy launches a salvo.
I rather bring ECM
Or use Terrain

You can toggle AMS On/Off... I have a key bound on my G13 for exactly that purpose, so all my ammo isnt wasted shooting down useless missles in the beginning of the match. So there are definitely ways to counteract the negatives you are listing... that sounds just like poor use of AMS just like most people talking about how LRMs are not good are just not good at them.

[LordNothing]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 14 February 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

You can toggle AMS On/Off... I have a key bound on my G13 for exactly that purpose, so all my ammo isnt wasted shooting down useless missles in the beginning of the match. So there are definitely ways to counteract the negatives you are listing... that sounds just like poor use of AMS just like most people talking about how LRMs are not good are just not good at them.

you can get real good at lerming but eventually you are going to meet a player or team that is expert at evading or countering lerms. like 12 mechs all with radar derp, good ecm coverage and good positions (and likely the kind of people who consider ams not worth the costs). at that point no matter how good you are with lerms, you will find them very useless very fast. lerms still have their place though, new players got to start somewhere and its a low bar of entry. i also use them on mechs that are leveling slow, mostly to pad damage and speed up my leveling rate. but i sure as hell aint gonna take em to fp.

[NighthawK1337]

We need to view AMS usage mathematically. It destroys 1 missile per 3 ammo, 2 if Overloaded. at 1 ton, that's about 600 to 1000 damage dealt to your team negated throughout the match assuming that it's in a place like polar highlands where all missiles would hit. I'd say that if LRMs are in a way can't be avoided like when you're in an assault that's too slow to take cover or narced, and AMS system is a good investment mathematically considering that it'll take just about 300 damage at maximum to destroy all parts of the torso of a mech. Considering that someone in your team will most likely get pelted by LRMs, trading 1.5 tons to save 4-6 tons of armor is a good trade.

[PlayerUnknown]

no ams, because i know how to take cover. and close in the gap for less damage. or i use my arm to block.

but sometimes they get me good. LRMS ARE NO JOKE

plus, i know at least someone on my side has AMS, so were good

and i dont like ams going off when im hiding , in case i forget to turn it off.

it is useful trust me, but my gaming style doesn't require it.

also, i rather have an extra heat sink or laser,

also i am not telling you what to do,

this is me explain what i do and how i feel.

W A R K H A N, on 14 February 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

If multiple players on your team stack AMS, it does a pretty good job assuming the opposing team is LRM heavy. But a single or even dual AMS on your mech when no one else has it is a waste of time. Just going to burn though all your ammo shooting down LRM's for everyone else with very little impact on how much damage they eat...And you may just find yourself out of ammo when missiles are firing on you and you actually need it.

Also I rather not have my position given away everytime the enemy launches a salvo.
I rather bring ECM
Or use Terrain

and i know im going to get hated on for this but

WWWWWWWWWWW AAAAAAAAA RRRRRRRRR KKKKKKKK HHHHHHHH AAAAAAA NNNNNNNNNNN

sup buddy :-D, its phucken Jay LOL

Edited by JayRtech, 14 February 2017 - 09:43 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Rocks are OP, and radar deprivation is stupidly effective. The only time I'd consider AMS is if the mech needs to burn a few tons on extraneous equipment. In fact, I think the only mech I actively run that has AMS is my MPLAS Huntsman, because I ran out of enough crit slots for DHS, and needed to soak up a few tons, even after installing a TC and an active probe.

The higher up the skill tree you go, the more you realize that the best missile defense is hard cover or pushing under someone's minimum range.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 February 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[TheMadTypist]

I never liked equipping it because:

1. It's invested tonnage that's only useful if the enemy brings a specific weapon system, which you may not even encounter
2. it wastes ammo like nobody's business unless you toggle it on/off, and even then it has poor prioritization of what to shoot at- I'm fine with defending friendlies, I'm less fine with defending the spot friendlies were standing 10 seconds ago (especially when I have incoming myself). Also, shooting the inside of caves and tunnels.
3. the default method of toggling it on/off is clumsy
4. against the large volleys that come at you, it's akin to pissing into a hailstorm
5. you really need multiple tons of ammo per just to get through one match where it actually gets use, requiring yet more investment that may not even be applicable to the current mission
6. majority of designs are maneuverable enough to break lock and get out of the way without AMS
7. the designs that sport multiple AMS usually sacrifice hardpoints to do it, making the design weaker even before considering the negatives of actually equipping AMS

unless they've been buffed since last I equipped it, I don't plan on using it any time soon.

[Kaspirikay]

because i am selfish

[Clanner Scum]

The only thing I would use AMS on is a slow moving assault. The added defense is always good. Just makes you tankier.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

LordNothing, on 14 February 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

you can get real good at lerming but eventually you are going to meet a player or team that is expert at evading or countering lerms. like 12 mechs all with radar derp, good ecm coverage and good positions (and likely the kind of people who consider ams not worth the costs). at that point no matter how good you are with lerms, you will find them very useless very fast. lerms still have their place though, new players got to start somewhere and its a low bar of entry. i also use them on mechs that are leveling slow, mostly to pad damage and speed up my leveling rate. but i sure as hell aint gonna take em to fp.

if you have a 12 man team that is built to include Fire Support than LRMs can be just as effective against those metamech tryhards... so if we are crafting very specific outliers as examples than even those outliers still have counters when done properly. Only Mining really punishes LRM as a map... the others only have very specific quadrants, and if you are going to let the enemy team dictate the battlefield then you have already lost half the fight.

[PlayerUnknown]

lets all do fw, and take 12 urbin mechs with AMS, 3 mg guns and 3 small pulse, and run around the map like YEEEHAHAHAHAHA

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

It really boils down to this: AMS mostly does stuff against LRMs. LRMs warn you when they are fired at you. When you are warned, you can take cover (or if you have Radar Deprivation you can seek concealment and it will do just as well as hard cover).

Why burn 1-1.5 tons on something that you can make pointless with a bit of situational awareness and a few footsteps? Plus, for those mechs that have it, ECM costs the same tonnage and space as an AMS and ammo while being far more effective.

[W31rdWarrior]

Personally, I put AMSs only on 'mechs that can carry two or more, like my triple AMS KFX-C (which I use only for shielding my teammates from lurms, specially Assaults) or my double AMS AS7-K. For me, a single AMS it's worthless, I prefer using that one (and half) ton for other.

By the way, I'm still waiting for a triple AMS IS 'mech

Edited by W31rdWarrior, 15 February 2017 - 12:11 AM.

[NighthawK1337]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 14 February 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

you can take cover (or if you have Radar Deprivation you can seek concealment and it will do just as well as hard cover).

IF you can. I don't see a King Crab ducking it when he gets spotted at polar highlands. 60 kph at most with that large profile. Not every mech in every situation can just get to cover. Often times there are even spotters that prioritize mechs that won't be able to get cover.

[Roadbuster]

A few days ago I had the chance to observe an Atlas-K with dual AMS while he got shot with LRMs.
As far as I can tell he got shot by LRM10 or LRM15 and I don't know if he had any AMS modules equipped.
But the Atlas just stood there and took the beating.
First I thought that guy was stupid because he was just standing in the open. But then I noticed that not even one missile hit him.
It took about 5-6 volleys till something came through and he took a little bit of damage.

I don't equip AMS on all my mechs, but I still use it and think that it's worth the 1,5t, although it would be great if ammo would be higher per ton.

Now imagine what would happen if most mechs in your team would have AMS and would stay grouped on Polar.
It would require alot of missiles to deal any significant damage while your team could just push the opponents and their useless LRM boats.

[G4LV4TR0N]

Did anybody try fully upgraded AMS vs SRM/SSRM after recent patch changes?

[Elizander]

Two AMS with the overload mod are alright. AMS without the overload mod is very meh.

[Bl00dbeard]

Mainly because AMS really doesn't make any meaningful difference. Its not going to save you from a dedicated LRM + spotter. As others have said, you'd be better off getting something else. If you are going to die to lrms because you couldn't get to cover, or they have a UAV up and you didn't notice, well... an AMS isn't going to save you. Two? Maybe. I've never noticed any sort of continued life expectancy because of a single AMS.

[Kael Posavatz]

1) Increased missile health and speed, and reduced range, limit AMS effectiveness against SRM/SSRM/Narc

2) Unless you are prepared to maintain active control, AMS can be spoofed by skilled LRM pilots to reveal location

3) In a truly high-threat LRM environment, AMS burns through ammo so quickly (especially if running multiple systems and 'overburst' mode) that mounting sufficient ammunition often means carrying insufficient offensive firepower

4) As players gain skill, they learn other ways to deal with missile threats, and are less likely to take LRMs because they have learned other ways to be a threat, both of which degrade the LRM environment

5) The handful of players who learn how to use LRMs in an effective, team-oriented role, also have learned how to minimize wastage. This includes things like shooting off missiles at the back 25-33% of their optimal range, and shooting them into AMS coverage.


TL;DR

Ineffective against non-LRMs, inefficient use of mass/space, otherwise to defend against LRMs, and less LRMs coming your way anyhow.

[Lykaon]

One: Fewer LRMs are used in tier 1

Two: As your experience grows you develope techniques to evade the few LRM launchers present so AMS is not as effective as utilizing counter LRM techniques.

Three: As players advance in knowledge you tend to see more and more optimized builds. This means 1.5 tons for an AMS that is only useful IF the enemy uses LRMs and even then only if you somehow failed to use counter LRM techniques to defend yourself. Well...that's 1.5 tons of sometimes useful as opposed to another heatsink and more armor or an Active probe etc.

[Alistair Winter]

Because AMS is underpowered, obviously.

If you multiply the efficiency of AMS by X2, X3, X5, X10, X50 or X100, you will eventually reach a point where more people would use them. The cost of 1 - 2 tons would be worth it.

It's like saying that good players don't need ECM and that ECM is situational. Sure. But if every mech could equip ECM, most good players would bring ECM on most of their mechs. Yes, it's situational. But at 1 - 1.5 tons, it's just too cheap compared to all the situational benefits it offers.

I wish AMS was something worth considering, but it's really far too underpowered right now. Barely has any effect even when you do get targeted by LRMs. It leaks ammo like a broken faucet as soon as missiles are flying anywhere near you. I only ever take it if I can equip double / triple AMS with both AMS modules. And even then, I usually wish I had gotten a couple of extra heat sinks and weapon modules instead.

It's underpowered.