82 replies to this topic

[Kuaron]

Generally, I agree with Russ about no free respecing.
But in the forum there was also a suggestion of a testing period of ~1 week before the skills become permanent (=expensive to respec) to still allow experimentation. Does Russ know about it and considered something suchlike?

[Nightbird]

I think the cbill cost is fine. For the cost of one mastered mech today, you need to buy three variants plus 1 set of modules, whereas in the new tree you can get one mastered mech for 1/2 to 1/3 the cbill cost. As you respec, the cost will climb up but unless you have ADD, you can buy another of the same mech and do a different spec altogether. The only cost that is too high is XP, but that is getting reduced anyways.

[bayoucowboy]

Why not just charge for every node unlock as is, keep them all unlocked, keep the 91 node cap - then charge Talorien's idea of a "per respec" fee.

This would: 1) keep increase the gxp/xp/cbill sink that each chassis would require for maximum flexibility (some would grind until they are all unlocked), 2) add a little transactional charge to "change" a mech's focus (in addition to the new equipment and node costs)

And most importantly - It would not "take away" a key FUN feature of MWO AND it would be a progressive system (meaning the chassis would "gain value" over time as the nodes were unlocked)

Alternatively, you could just allow "free" respecs for Premium Time players (which means those little 1-3 day giveaways would be a much "bigger" deal to the free play public)

Just my $0.02 (of the $955.50 I have paid into this game)

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Cato Phoenix, on 15 February 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

It has to cost something or you could shuffle around cbills and respecs like nothing else.

Nobody has given a satisfactory reason for why we should not be able to customize our mechs for free.

[Fox2232]

I have to say that Lighthouse is right. High respec cost is wrong.
High initial cost is not an issue. But high respec is going to hurt PGI in long term...

Every change they'll make to skill tree, even minor will create community backlash. People quitting. Later cost reduction into sane levels will make angry everyone who spent ridiculous amount of C-Bills on respec already = Another quits.

Every balancing change will again be met with above. Never ending cycle where community is unhappy with current state of game and any change to that state will make them even more unhappy regardless how much better it makes game.

And let's face it, there are changes in pipeline. It is coming and there will be a lot of them. And so PGI is in for a storm if total cost of respec for single node is anywhere above 10k.
- - - -
If player cycled 16 modules between 200 mechs, his mistake for not balancing C-Bill investment will hurt him.
But someone who invested into 200 mechs and balanced cost and will not be hurt from unlocking trees will go bankrupt from reskills in comparison to guy with 30mechs.

Secondly, anyone who will realize this will simply not buy many mechs. New people will buy just 20 which they like most and will be done with it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 February 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

I think re-spec costs arent as bad as people are making out, its not like you will be respeccing the whole mech (since you can do skills individually) - its really only the weapon tree you would ever change, no? In my opinion things like the defence tree and the lower chassis tree are basically essentials for 100% of builds ever.

Yeah, but it still ends up costing close to 4 million c-bills to un spec two weapon trees and spec up two other trees. It would be nice if the C-bills actually unlocked the node permanently, and you just had to use XP to apply nodes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

It would be nice if the C-bills actually unlocked the node permanently, and you just had to use XP to apply nodes.

No, it should take no amount of currency to respec. If it does take currency though C-bills are better than XP imo.

[Gas Guzzler]

ironnightbird, on 15 February 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I think the cbill cost is fine. For the cost of one mastered mech today, you need to buy three variants plus 1 set of modules, whereas in the new tree you can get one mastered mech for 1/2 to 1/3 the cbill cost. As you respec, the cost will climb up but unless you have ADD, you can buy another of the same mech and do a different spec altogether. The only cost that is too high is XP, but that is getting reduced anyways.

What if you actually like using more than one variant of a mech though? Some mechs actually have several worth while variants/configs (WHM, MAD-IIC, BLR, CP, to name a few). As soon as you want to use two variants, the benefit of the rule of 3 being gone is essentially non-existent with the new system.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 February 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

No, it should take no amount of currency to respec. If it does take currency though C-bills are better than XP imo.

I'm just grasping at a logical cost reduction method. XP unlocking and c-bills to apply actually does make more sense though, and fits the current system.

I'm not sure why it has to cost anything though, I agree in that regard, just proposing compromise.

Cato Phoenix, on 15 February 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yea, I mean, that's obvious. It has to cost something or you could shuffle around cbills and respecs like nothing else.

Oh gosh, god forbid we don't have to pay to change our build! The horror!

[Malrock]

Bud Crue, on 15 February 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

Free respec every time PGI nerfs or changes quirks. How about that? I should nt have to pay every time they play darts and randomly ruin something else.

No it needs to be every single patch, free respec, because every time balance changes you may need to change your mech around.

[Orville Righteous]

I think the weapon trees should be free to respec for Omnimechs. The whole point of Omnimechs is that you can switch out your weapons depending on your mission. Omnimechs are supposed to be versatile. I'm OK with having to pay (C-Bills or MC) for respec'ing non-Omnis.

[Kael Posavatz]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 February 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

I think re-spec costs arent as bad as people are making out, its not like you will be respeccing the whole mech (since you can do skills individually) - its really only the weapon tree you would ever change, no? In my opinion things like the defence tree and the lower chassis tree are basically essentials for 100% of builds ever.

It's easy to think that, but no.

The Black Knight can utilize a maximum of 3 weapon trees (Laser, pulse laser, PPC). Build design will come to favor using just one of these so that the fewest number of nodes affect the most weapons. Mechs like the Orion will have to invest in multiple weapon trees because their weapons are spread across multiple hardpoint types or make the choice to bring less effective weapons. If the Orion goes the former, respecing will involve far more weapon nodes than if the Black Knight made a switch from pulse lasers to standard lasers.

Also, there are skills that are buried or otherwise mutable. Say I have a TBR-Prime with an -S side torso. The -S comes with jump jets so I drop a few nodes, but later remove the -S side torso in favor of...something else, so I have to respect the JJ nodes as well as the weapons. Plus a lot of skills are buried. If I pull the Narc off a Raven then I probably won't want to keep the Capture Assist nodes and...

Costs pile up. Fast.

On one hand I can see the point. And if RB and PGI wanted to make a play at 'lore' to justify this, well, as I recall there are rules governing the expense of customized mechs in one of the TT or RPG books and it wasn't cheap (I think it was also fairly often ignored). On the other hand, OmniPods are intended to be customized (and repaired) on the fly. So, I suppose I could make a post complaining about another nerf to the Clans but the truth of the matter was none of this, and especially not the respecing, was considered or intended in anyway from a lore perspective.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think the Skill Tree Costs should be brought down alittle, but Perhaps not reduced to 0,
why? ok first all your xp gets refunded when you respec so thats already free so you dont have to worrie,

for 5 Nodes it costs 500,000 & 7,500xp, but lets not look at xp because that gets refunded 100%,
when you respec those 5 points it costs 125,000, or 625,000 with respec'ing and choosing another 5,

i feel the cost should be at most 10K as that would only cost you 50,000 much less,
and you can easily make that back in a single game,

[BigScwerl]

I think it makes sense....Russ and PGI make more money when you have to spend more of your money on MC to buy new mech bays to have builds capable of different stuff.

Gosh that is disappointing though.

[Baulven]

You should buy nodes permanently and respecing should cost a small fee to redistribute your points. That way your mech gains value, there is a small sink (aka refit cost) and no one gets hosed for owning large stables of mechs.

Basically if you bought radar derp decide not to use it for a build then bring it back it should cost nothing for the node beyond the reset my points respec fee. The respective fee should be 200k (one decent match for non premium) or like 10 MC. Keep it low to not punish your best customers, and easy to deal with.

Could also offer a 300mc always free respect option. You get all your points back and only ever have to buy new nodes for no additional costs.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I'm just happy its cheaper than before. Previously buying a new loadout would also have you buy 2-3 weapons modules for that loadout for about 9 million cbills. Now its like 2-3 million to respec just the weapon tree into another weapon tree.

You guys talking like its expensive seem to have not bought weapon modules on every new loadout ever before, because the skill tree system for weapons is exactly what buying modules was. If you didn't do it back then, well don't spend your cbills on it now and live without the boost, otherwise be happy the costs got cut so heavily.

[Admiral Brad]

I have to say that mech designing for me is more enjoyable that actually playing the matches. I like trying out new configs and doing things like a straight upgrade on a Warhammer 6R that is very obviously not meta. I change frequently. The only option i have under the new system is to completely ignore weapon quirks. This basically means maxing out Mech Ops, Lower Torso, Info Tech and Toughness on all mechs so I can fiddle with builds. That is my planned route for 90% of my mechs. The few where I have found my favorite config for, such as the Hunchback IIC Pulse Lasers config, will get a weapon boost, but those are rare. It would be nice to have some basic nodes and some advanced (pay) nodes instead of their current setup.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Admiral Brad, on 15 February 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

advanced (pay) nodes instead of their current setup.

Ew.

Really, don't give them ideas to lock certain skills behind a paywall.

[AnTi90d]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 February 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

..all your xp gets refunded when you respec so thats already free so you dont have to worrie,

for 5 Nodes it costs 500,000 & 7,500xp, but lets not look at xp because that gets refunded 100%..

XP is only refunded when you respec using MC.

Cbill respecs destroy the XP.

It's a monetization scheme hiding under the guise of a Skill Tree.

..and they aren't giving us anything new, they're taking away what we have now and charging us cash or Cbills if we want it back.

--edit for clarification

Edited by AnTi90d, 15 February 2017 - 10:20 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

AnTi90d, on 15 February 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

XP is only refunded when you respec using MC.

Cbill respecs destroy the XP.

It's a monetization scheme hiding under the guise of a Skill Tree.

..and they aren't giving us anything new, they're taking away what we have now and charging us cash if we want it back.

XP is refunded 100% using cbills or MC, re-read the PTS notes.

[AnTi90d]

Dakota1000, on 15 February 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

XP is refunded 100% using cbills or MC, re-read the PTS notes.

Oh, you are correct.

Well, damn..

I'm still opposed to it, as is over 90% of the reddit community.

I like being able to see, for free, if I like this build better with a MDLAS range or a MDLAS cooldown or an SRM range buff/module.. without having to pay through the nose to test those builds out.