40 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

MischiefSC, on 16 February 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Except even in TT it was too hot.

Honestly this is probably the most lore accurate mech we've got.

It's a 90 ton Nova. What happens when you alpha a stock Nova loadout?

Yes... but she was great at stand off ranges... Kind of like the Warhawk Prime.....

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 16 February 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

I'm talking about what it would take for PGI to reduce heat. Right now, I suppose they won't reduce range very much and increasing duration would be pointless. So I'm saying that I would be happy if they nerfed the CERLL in some other way, such as increasing cooldown or reducing damage, just so long as they reduce heat. The CERLL is way too hot now, and it basically makes it a bad idea to use it in combination with most other weapons for most builds.

Heat ain't the reason it's not used in combination with other weapons. In fact, wouldn't these combinations feature cool-running missiles and/or ballistics that offset the ERLL's own heat? Lowering heat just makes it more boatable, which I'm not necessarily opposed to given its current state but I think it's just beating around the bush.

Weapon combinations are based primarily on synergy. The 1.5 second beam duration makes the weapon's behavior contrast too greatly with other weapon types (even other lasers) and makes the user stay exposed too long in general (even when not combined with other things).

Bumping the beam duration down is where PGI should focus their attention on this specific gun. 10 heat is fine for a weapon with such great range and theoretically good damage (only hampered by that burn time).

[Wildstreak]

Clownwarlord, on 15 February 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

I know only one thing ... who ever fired all 6 erll just over heated.

If you use 6 ERPPCs, does that make that build the SuperStar?

[PlayerUnknown]

https://youtu.be/F7PlFqzG4QM

NERF THAT

you can nerf this one too aye LOL (^o^)

https://youtu.be/5uVi2jQ5AOs

Edited by JayRtech, 17 February 2017 - 09:03 PM.

[Jubblator]

I smell photoshop skills in that pic ^^

[xe N on]

Alistair Winter, on 16 February 2017 - 04:39 AM, said:

I wish PGI would just nerf ERLL cool down and damage and reduce heat so I can actually start using them together with other weapons or boated in large groups. I know Clans are a bit overpowered right now, but the CERLL is ridiculously limited in terms of versatility. Possibly the least versatile weapon in the game. Possibly the least used of all Clan weapons in solo queue.

I perform extraordinary well in solo queue in a HBK-IIC-A or Hellbringer with 4 C-ERLL.High hardpoints for teh win.

No idea why Clams cry about it. I can compare both directly to my GRF-1E with 4 IS-ERLL that even feature reduced laser duration. HBK-IIC-A wins every time even though I need to fire 2x2 with clams instead of 1x3 with my GRF.

Edited by xe N on, 17 February 2017 - 10:29 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Clownwarlord, on 15 February 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

I know only one thing ... who ever fired all 6 erll just over heated.

Looks awesome though and that's a lot of damage being spread around.

FupDup, on 17 February 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Heat ain't the reason it's not used in combination with other weapons. In fact, wouldn't these combinations feature cool-running missiles and/or ballistics that offset the ERLL's own heat? Lowering heat just makes it more boatable, which I'm not necessarily opposed to given its current state but I think it's just beating around the bush.

Weapon combinations are based primarily on synergy. The 1.5 second beam duration makes the weapon's behavior contrast too greatly with other weapon types (even other lasers) and makes the user stay exposed too long in general (even when not combined with other things).

Bumping the beam duration down is where PGI should focus their attention on this specific gun. 10 heat is fine for a weapon with such great range and theoretically good damage (only hampered by that burn time).

Yep the CERLL is actually a high skill weapon to keep that burn on. Very hard to use and well balanced for that. I would say Clan Auto cannons are fairly balanced in some ways for the same reason. Its the CSPL etc that are where serious balance issues start.

Have they added the extra point of damage from Clan weapons to the mech modifications tree yet?

They got to balance this game rock solid eventually. Oh and add real content to. FOTM is getting really old. Not that I ever played it.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 February 2017 - 12:52 AM.

[PlayerUnknown]

Jubblator, on 17 February 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

I smell photoshop skills in that pic ^^

my photo shop skills ended in 2003-04.

all i do now is hit record. while youtube is random in the back, playing what ever it likes.

i capture moments that would have been forgotten.

[Clownwarlord]

Looking at the Super Nova I get the since I will be able to play it like an assault version of the Timber Wolf, but that does depend on the side torso mounting placements.

For example, my Timber Wolf builds usually are 2 Large Pulses and 4 ER Mediums, but when looking at SNV - C I get the since of just upgrading with 6 ER Mediums; and since it is a non-omni clan mech I can cram more double heat sinks.

I do agree it will never be as mobile as the Timber Wolf but I just get that since of similarity with shorter profile, similar wideness for front profile, and then maybe a slightly bigger side profile to account for the extra tonnage.

I really do hope the side torso mounts are a decent height so when it comes out for CBills after this new skill tree I will hopefully get just that mech and maybe the A and 3 variants as well. The only one I would spend money on is the hero like before I want to see where the hard point placement is before I spend the money.

[FupDup]

Johnny Z, on 18 February 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Yep the CERLL is actually a high skill weapon to keep that burn on. Very hard to use and well balanced for that. I would say Clan Auto cannons are fairly balanced in some ways for the same reason. Its the CSPL etc that are where serious balance issues start.

It's not just about the skill of the person using the Clan ERLL. It's also about the skill of the person getting shot, who can take cover and/or torso twist to spread/avoid the damage.

And even when assuming a full burn time on one component (uncommon), you still have to be exposed to enemy return fire for quite a long time.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 17 February 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Heat ain't the reason it's not used in combination with other weapons. In fact, wouldn't these combinations feature cool-running missiles and/or ballistics that offset the ERLL's own heat? Lowering heat just makes it more boatable, which I'm not necessarily opposed to given its current state but I think it's just beating around the bush.
Weapon combinations are based primarily on synergy. The 1.5 second beam duration makes the weapon's behavior contrast too greatly with other weapon types (even other lasers) and makes the user stay exposed too long in general (even when not combined with other things).
Bumping the beam duration down is where PGI should focus their attention on this specific gun. 10 heat is fine for a weapon with such great range and theoretically good damage (only hampered by that burn time).

Ultimately, this is just a matter of opinion. I don't want an CERLL with 10 heat, I want a weapon with lower heat so I can more easily combine it with builds. 10 heat means you end up with really, really boring builds, because you'll want at least 2 of them and there's only so much heat any mech can absorb. You end up with boring builds like the 4xCERLL Hunchie, 5xCERLL Warhawk or 3xCERLL + gauss Warhawk or some such nonsense. It's all boring.

I'd even prefer a CERLL that did 9 damage, if I could significantly reduce heat. If the heat was low enough, I'd pair it up with UAC2s or UAC5s or CERMLs.

I just find them utterly boring right now. I don't particularly care how PGI nerfs the weapon to compensate for lower heat. Duration is already extremely long, so I expect they wouldn't increase it further. They could reduce range, but I doubt it. That leaves damage and cooldown, basically.

I don't much care how they do it. I have 60 fullyl equipped Clan mechs right now, I think maybe 1 or 2 have CERLLs. When the Supernova is released, I'm not sure I'll even equip CERLLs on that one. It's absurd.

xe N on, on 17 February 2017 - 10:25 PM, said:

I perform extraordinary well in solo queue in a HBK-IIC-A or Hellbringer with 4 C-ERLL.High hardpoints for teh win.
No idea why Clams cry about it. I can compare both directly to my GRF-1E with 4 IS-ERLL that even feature reduced laser duration. HBK-IIC-A wins every time even though I need to fire 2x2 with clams instead of 1x3 with my GRF.

Again, it's an extremely boring build. Yes, you can boat CERLL on certain Clan mechs, but it's absurdly boring. And besides, PPCs + Gauss seem to win sniper exchanges now anyway, so it's both boring and sub-par.

You may perform extraordinarily well with it, but whenever anyone suggests that a weapon or mech that needs to be buffed, some guy comes along and claims he does extraordinarily well with them. Doesn't really matter.

[xe N on]

Alistair Winter, on 19 February 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

Again, it's an extremely boring build. Yes, you can boat CERLL on certain Clan mechs, but it's absurdly boring.

true. So are all laser vomit.

Quote

And besides, PPCs + Gauss seem to win sniper exchanges now anyway, so it's both boring and sub-par.

true, but 4 c-erll are lighter (useable on mediums), don`t consume ammo and doesn't explode if critted.

Range is better too. So return fire at max range is minimal.

PPCs/gauss are mainly better because of true pinpoint and less "flashy" visuals (make spotting more difficult)

Edited by xe N on, 19 February 2017 - 01:31 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

xe N on, on 19 February 2017 - 01:27 AM, said:

true. So are all laser vomit.

Sure. I almost never use laser vomit. LL+ML, LPL+ML or LPL+MPL is at least a little more entertaining, but I don't usually run those either.

xe N on, on 19 February 2017 - 01:27 AM, said:

true, but 4 c-erll are lighter (useable on mediums), don`t consume ammo and doesn't explode if critted.
Range is better too. So return fire at max range is minimal.
PPCs/gauss are mainly better because of true pinpoint and less "flashy" visuals (make spotting more difficult)

Seems like most people are running dual PPC on the Hunchie, not quad CERLL. For QP at least. I don't play FP.

[C E Dwyer]

JayRtech, on 17 February 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

https://youtu.be/F7PlFqzG4QM

NERF THAT

you can nerf this one too aye LOL (^o^)

https://youtu.be/5uVi2jQ5AOs

God that music is irritating, if that was the plan it worked

[C E Dwyer]

Alistair Winter, on 19 February 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

Seems like most people are running dual PPC on the Hunchie, not quad CERLL. For QP at least. I don't play FP.

If you don't run the energy variant as an CERPPC poptart, you run it CLPL x2 CERML x3 as back up if you have any sense.

I have seen CERLL builds, but that just makes me sigh and feel sad for the Hunchie, and hope one day it gets a real pilot.

[xe N on]

Cathy, on 19 February 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

I have seen CERLL builds, but that just makes me sigh and feel sad for the Hunchie, and hope one day it gets a real pilot.

What makes a real pilot by your definition?

4x C-ERLL does make optimal use of the high hardpoints for hill peeking. I can show you a lot of screenies doing between 600 to 900 damage and one or more kills in that build.

I mainly play on EU-servers on EU prime time. The gameplay is a lot of more static and much more focused on long range than on NA-servers. This build is a direct adaption to that environment.

I use the 2 C-LPL and 3 C-ERML build too, however. It is good too, but don't excel at long range, escpacially after the CLPL max- range nerf. And the 2-ERPPC is much more a trolling/fun build than any thing other. 20 damage PPFLD is so 2014.

For medium range I have my CLPL/C-ERML SCR, it's much better for that than the HBK-IIC.

Edited by xe N on, 19 February 2017 - 04:42 AM.

[PlayerUnknown]

Cathy, on 19 February 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

God that music is irritating, if that was the plan it worked

I am just having fun :-p

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 19 February 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

Ultimately, this is just a matter of opinion. I don't want an CERLL with 10 heat, I want a weapon with lower heat so I can more easily combine it with builds. 10 heat means you end up with really, really boring builds, because you'll want at least 2 of them and there's only so much heat any mech can absorb. You end up with boring builds like the 4xCERLL Hunchie, 5xCERLL Warhawk or 3xCERLL + gauss Warhawk or some such nonsense. It's all boring.

I'd even prefer a CERLL that did 9 damage, if I could significantly reduce heat. If the heat was low enough, I'd pair it up with UAC2s or UAC5s or CERMLs.

I just find them utterly boring right now. I don't particularly care how PGI nerfs the weapon to compensate for lower heat. Duration is already extremely long, so I expect they wouldn't increase it further. They could reduce range, but I doubt it. That leaves damage and cooldown, basically.

I don't much care how they do it. I have 60 fullyl equipped Clan mechs right now, I think maybe 1 or 2 have CERLLs. When the Supernova is released, I'm not sure I'll even equip CERLLs on that one. It's absurd.

The UAC/5 and UAC/2 are low enough heat on their own that they can be used as your "backup" weapons after you reach the top of the heat threshold. The velocity on the UAC/2 might even be somewhat decent at syncing up with the laser, but the UAC/5 probably not so much.

Combining with the CERML is dependent on the heat of the ERML as much as it is on the ERLL, if not more so. Given the ranges at which most fights occur (especially in Puglandia), you might as well just use the ERML entirely.

In general I find this stance of yours to be fairly strange. In the past I'm fairly certain that you've argued for "sniper" weapons to have longer cooldowns (which the CERLL most definitely qualifies for), and higher heat on everything so that nothing is boatable and you're more or less forced to mix all sorts of weapons.

In general, the specific heat value isn't the important part so much as making sure its overall damage per heat efficiency is considerably lower than lasers that don't have the same kind of range it does. We know that PGI will always keep Clan lasers dealing at least slightly more total damage than IS ones, so your 9 damage idea is not likely. 10 is the lowest they'll go, although I'm not sure they would even bother given that they like every Clan laser dealing +2 damage compared to its IS counterpart.

I still maintain that the fastest and easiest way to boost up the Clan ER Large is to cut the duration down a bit, to something like 1.35 to 1.4. Increasing the Ghost Heat limit to 3 is something I'd want, but PGI would probably apply it to the Clan LPL as well...

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

The UAC/5 and UAC/2 are low enough heat on their own that they can be used as your "backup" weapons after you reach the top of the heat threshold. The velocity on the UAC/2 might even be somewhat decent at syncing up with the laser, but the UAC/5 probably not so much.

Quite heavy backup weapons.

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

Combining with the CERML is dependent on the heat of the ERML as much as it is on the ERLL, if not more so. Given the ranges at which most fights occur (especially in Puglandia), you might as well just use the ERML entirely.

Right now, yes.

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

In general I find this stance of yours to be fairly strange. In the past I'm fairly certain that you've argued for "sniper" weapons to have longer cooldowns (which the CERLL most definitely qualifies for), and higher heat on everything so that nothing is boatable and you're more or less forced to mix all sorts of weapons.

You're mixing a bunch of different discussions there. Sometimes I discuss things that are realistic and desirable within the current status quo, sometimes I discuss things that would only be realistic if PGI decided to make major changes to the game.

As for 'sniper' weapons, that is usually about instant damage and stealth. Which is why I consider the gauss rifle to be the only real 'sniper' weapon in MWO. But again, it's all about context. Many people use 'sniper' about any long range direct fire weapons.

Ultimately, I just expressed a desire for CERLL to have lower heat so I can combine it effectively with other weapons or boat it more effectively. That's it. I don't really want to go down the road of how PGI is going to make it happen, because the dartboard of balance is too random and I grow increasingly weary of academic balancing discussions that don't lead to anything.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 19 February 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Quite heavy backup weapons.

Well, now the issue in this specific area is that most long-range weapons tend to be on the heavier side, intended to balance out the benefit of said longer range. Most "backup" type weapons with low tonnage requirements tend to have fairly short range.

The Clan Protomech AC/2 would help a little bit (3.5 tons) but even that is still kinda heavy.

I guess the LRM5 and LRM10 would be light enough to combine with your ERLL, and the good news is that you can easily maintain your missile lock while holding down the ERLL beam (nearly perfect sync). The bad news, of course, is the fact that you have to use the current iteration of LRMs in the first place...

#WTBReworkedLurms

Alistair Winter, on 19 February 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Ultimately, I just expressed a desire for CERLL to have lower heat so I can combine it effectively with other weapons or boat it more effectively. That's it. I don't really want to go down the road of how PGI is going to make it happen, because the dartboard of balance is too random and I grow increasingly weary of academic balancing discussions that don't lead to anything.

The burnout is real.

Edited by FupDup, 19 February 2017 - 07:38 AM.