24 replies to this topic

[Malrock]

Here is a solution that I believe is fairly elegant and avoids the problems of the current tree which hoses people who have already mastered their mechs.

Take the 11 Skills from the PTS that currently correspond to the live skills available now (I don't count convergence in the elite tree or what ever it is called because everyone agrees it basically does nothing). Put them into two trees 8 in the Basic tree, and 3 in the Elite tree. (Or it could just be a single linear tree with the elite skills all at the bottom.) Make them cost only exp, and allow people to purchase these for the same cost that they currently have in the live game. This way everyone can keep what they currently have worked hard to earn. Also make it mandatory for people to fully unlock the basic before they can unlock the elite tree, and also mandatory to unlock the elite tree before they can place points into any other skill tree. The other skills can then be locked behind a c bill pay wall, perhaps even keeping a similar cost structure as they currently have as they now represent modules, and their effective replacement. This has the other elegant side effect of leaving the user with 80 points to spend then which is the equivalent of approximately 4 fully kitted skill trees.

Benefits:

1. You don't loose what you already have earned on your mech from current skill ups.
2. You can use your c bills to get module equivalencies and you get a deal on the modules because they are cheaper than they previously were.
3. You still get to invest in 4 skill trees to fully customize your mech after your mandatory 11 points.
4. It provides a sense of progression for new players, and old.
5. It prevents new players from completely gimping their build by requiring the first 11 be spent in the most effective way possible.
6. It delays the c bill costs for new players so they have more time to improve their mech with different builds / save up for a new mech, before getting deep into the module tree.
7. It decreases the power gap problem between a new mech and a full kitted out one, by making an intermediate 11 point exp only expenditure that brings up new mechs much closer in power to full kitted ones with out requiring any c bill grinding.
8. It puts the module costs in the same place as before, (ie after basic and elite, and with a c bill cost)
9. It gives a trade off that is reasonable. You loose the ability to module swap but now you can have way more modules on your mech than before and at a fraction of the cost per mech, but at a greater cost overall (due to loss of swapping).
10. People who have fully mastered (ie bought their extra mech module slot) have approximately 21,000 exp to begin spending on the new skill points immediately, thereby rewarding their previous grind.
11. From here balance can be achieved by tweaking the exp / c bill costs to an appropriate level for points after the first 11. (I suspect that future skills may still be too exp heavy.)
12. Everyone saves 1.1 million c bills on their first 11 points.

[Mountain Mechwarrior]

I like your idea

[Malrock]

Seems like everyone likes the idea by the absence of negative replies.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Existing players should be treated the same as new players and everyone should have access to the same trees in the same ways.

Existing players are getting an XP refund. Nobody is getting shafted because new players and old players alike will be presented with the same trees and have access to the same skills.

Let me put it this way: if you consider your Mechs to be currently "Mastered" then you accept the current skill ladder as end-game-worthy content. I do not consider my Mechs to be mastered, despite how many dozens of them have the extra module slot unlocked already, because I have considered the current skill ladder to be a place-holder for the past several years.

I am getting all my XP back. Me and Mr.Noob will have access to the same trees and skills. My opponents will be treated the same as me and my teammates. Nobody is getting the short end of any stick.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 February 2017 - 09:56 AM.

[Elizander]

The issue is not the XP, but the c-bills. XP is always in excess for people who play a lot, but c-bills are used for other things like buying mechs and adding it to the skill tree costs makes it difficult to feel like you are earning anything while paying to master 200 mechs.

Even with the module refund most people won't be getting 1-2 billion to pay for the respecs. I do think a one-time unlock fee per node (maybe adjust the price) and c-bill/mc payment per full respec where you can allocate nodes you already paid for without paying again (but you pay to reset the whole tree).

[FireStoat]

Your solution is good, and certainly better than PGI's first stab at a new system. Myself, I'd rather take a more simple route.

1) Keep the existing skill system as it stands now, including the 3 mech rule. Maintain that putting Exp into the trees not having a Cbill price.
2) Reduce the percent bonus from Fast Fire as it's an offender giving too much for too little when the TTK needs to be lengthened.
3) Remove all Modules from every game account. Refund the Cbill and Gxp cost of the modules to all players.
4) Introduce new modules with a broader scope of use and bonus with a reduced cost in CBills & Gxp to unlock. All modules unlocked by a player are placed into a reserve for the specific mech it was earned with. No more module swapping between mechs.
5) Give a starting bonus percent granted by a weapon module to be meaningful in strength and worth using, but nothing past that when placed into a slot. If a second weapon module is placed into a slot that is for a different type of weapon system, both modules enjoy a small but noticeable increase in their bonus. If a third weapon module is placed into the Mastered slot and all 3 modules are for different weapon system types, a further increased bonus is given to each module.

Problem solved. Past players aren't 'ripped off' for their work, or mechs they own. Present and future players will have a new Cbill sink, and new players don't have to jump through hoops to learn a brand new system with a crappy UI. Boating a single weapon type now comes into question over what a player gives up from perk bonuses in doing so. And best of all, a player has paid for each module unlock for a mech once and set it aside in the reserve to slot different, newly purchased modules while keeping the ability to GO BACK to the previous modules at no additional cost.

[Malrock]

Elizander, on 17 February 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

The issue is not the XP, but the c-bills. XP is always in excess for people who play a lot, but c-bills are used for other things like buying mechs and adding it to the skill tree costs makes it difficult to feel like you are earning anything while paying to master 200 mechs.

Even with the module refund most people won't be getting 1-2 billion to pay for the respecs. I do think a one-time unlock fee per node (maybe adjust the price) and c-bill/mc payment per full respec where you can allocate nodes you already paid for without paying again (but you pay to reset the whole tree).

Well exp could actually still be an issue. I have read many threads where people mastered their mech's and then stopped playing them so to actually get into the new trees despite having the c bills they would be exp gated. Plus new players would need a lot of exp potentially. Both sets of players would have a long hard slog ahead of them, and it can't be expedited in any way. Instead the c bill pay wall could be expedited if you were willing to pay for c bills.... ick.... the conversion is just so awful not sure why you would do this... but it could be. Plus if it is c bill gated you can grind c bills in your favorite chassis, maybe with a c bill bonus on it? Plus having the skills after the first 11 be c-bill gated makes more sense as this is to replace the cost of modules. The exp grind doesn't seem like it should be as limiting or maybe even exist at all after the first 11? I mean maybe some is needed as an exp sink but perhaps not quite as much? Again this is just fiddling with numbers at that point to find the exp sweet spot and can be better determined once the system is tested. You might be right however. Maybe the exp cost is ok as is. I figured the primary gate mechanism though would be c bills and not exp (after the first 11), because I conceptualized it more as a module replacement system.

[process]

Call me superficial, but I'd be happy with just an acknowledgement of my 200+ mastered mechs. Something like an "Elite" status at 40,000 XP or whatever it currently takes to master a variant.

[Malrock]

Prosperity Park, on 17 February 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Existing players should be treated the same as new players and everyone should have access to the same trees in the same ways.

Existing players are getting an XP refund. Nobody is getting shafted because new players and old players alike will be presented with the same trees and have access to the same skills.

Let me put it this way: if you consider your Mechs to be currently "Mastered" then you accept the current skill ladder as end-game-worthy content. I do not consider my Mechs to be mastered, despite how many dozens of them have the extra module slot unlocked already, because I have considered the current skill ladder to be a place-holder for the past several years.

I am getting all my XP back. Me and Mr.Noob will have access to the same trees and skills. My opponents will be treated the same as me and my teammates. Nobody is getting the short end of any stick.

My system doesn't treat new or old players differently, it just allows people who achieved a certain level of performance on their mech to keep that level of performance, rather than being forced to regrind all over again to get back what they had before the patch, which has now been placed behind a large c bill pay wall. This system also prevents new players from playing vastly inferior mechs for a much longer period of time by preventing the first 11 points from requiring c bills at all, thereby creating a middle level floor so that the power gap isn't so daunting.

The current PTS iteration does treat old players much worse though than a new player as it penalizes them by taking away content they had already unlocked in game (see the hundreds of posts by people with large stables all who are going to quit because of this change). My system keeps what players had already earned and merely adds another level of content they can now also access that they couldn't before.

[Malrock]

process, on 17 February 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Call me superficial, but I'd be happy with just an acknowledgement of my 200+ mastered mechs. Something like an "Elite" status at 40,000 XP or whatever it currently takes to master a variant.

I have been thinking about this a bit too, since we are doing away with the rule of three there isn't any reason to purchase a mech pack anymore, single mechs for c bills are the only thing that really makes sense. To re-incentivise owning more mechs what if you got a cost reduction on skill points if you own at least 3 varients of a mech? This might be an incentive for people to buy / hold onto 3 of a given type of mech.

[process]

Malrock, on 17 February 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

I have been thinking about this a bit too, since we are doing away with the rule of three there isn't any reason to purchase a mech pack anymore, single mechs for c bills are the only thing that really makes sense. To re-incentivise owning more mechs what if you got a cost reduction on skill points if you own at least 3 varients of a mech? This might be an incentive for people to buy / hold onto 3 of a given type of mech.

You mean like a dynamic SP cost for owning more variants? One issue I see with that is you might be able to game that system, i.e. buying 3 variants, leveling 1 at the reduced SP cost, then selling the two you don't want. Basically using cbills to shortcut the XP cost.

I had thought of a system that basically shares earned XP, i.e. earning 2000 XP in a match with variant A also gives variants B and C 500 XP each. Basically you'd still have to work on each variant separately, but at least there'd be some sort of boost.

Edited by process, 17 February 2017 - 01:37 PM.

[Malrock]

process, on 17 February 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

You mean like a dynamic SP cost for owning more variants? One issue I see with that is you might be able to game that system, i.e. buying 3 variants, leveling 1 at the reduced SP cost, then selling the two you don't want. Basically using cbills to shortcut the XP cost.

I had thought of a system that basically shares earned XP, i.e. earning 2000 XP in a match with variant A also gives variants B and C 500 XP each. Basically you'd still have to work on each variant separately, but at least there'd be some sort of boost.

True some one could trade a mountain of c bills to get a leg up, in just a single chasis, but they certainly aren't getting that for free, they are paying a potentially significant c bill tax, depending on the mech selected. This is probably only a significant problem for light mechs as they are the cheapest to purchase, but I expect it would not be worthwhile on anything much past that. Gotta have extra mech bays available to do it, also. I can't imagine ever doing that myself, I need those c bills for other things.... and i am not sure that "gaming" the system this way is actually a problem with the system as it is making a real and non trivial c bill and potentially MC (for mech bays) investment in exchange for the benefit.

I think I would actually be ok with this, and PGI would be too because it is effectively a c bill sink. Especially since the most abusive case is light pilots who are under represented in this game anyway. Maybe it will get more people to play lights.

[soapyfrog]

Prosperity Park, on 17 February 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

My opponents will be treated the same as me and my teammates. Nobody is getting the short end of any stick.

We are all getting the short end of the stick. The grind is being multiplied by 2.5 on XP alone, and c-bill costs are exploding.

[Malrock]

soapyfrog, on 17 February 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

We are all getting the short end of the stick. The grind is being multiplied by 2.5 on XP alone, and c-bill costs are exploding.

Yeah, anyone who hoped to master more than a stable of say 4 mechs is getting shafted by this new development.

[Malrock]

Ok let me start by saying that the changes are a very positive improvement over where things were, but they do nothing to help people who have already mastered their mech's, get anywhere close to back to the same bonuses that they had prior. If they aren't willing to move to a skill tree similar to the one I mentioned at the beginning of this post, then perhaps another method would be appropriate.

What if people who mastered their mechs got a multiplier on their exp refund, so that for each mastered mech they actually get a refund of 72,800 exp and 5.46 million c bills (thereby allowing them to re-master their mech?) This way they will be back in the same position as they would have been pre master. It has the inelegant solution of making people who bought modules for every mech ridiculously wealthy, but perhaps the modules could be refunded only at their sale price to compensate for this, instead of their purchase price?

Actually upon further reflection don't give them money or exp back, just give them 91 skill points that they can spend how ever they wish.

Edited by Malrock, 21 February 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Yes this is still a total disaster for those of us who have made the biggest time and money commitment to this game.

It is still also pretty bad for everyone else. The new system is a longer grind and more expensive than the old system, especially as your stable of mechs increases.

The interesting thing about this is that I would honestly bet my eye teeth that the people with the largest c-bill balances are also the biggest supporters of the game in terms of real money purchases. What kind of a message is PGI sending by deliberately trying to bankrupt us?

[Malrock]

soapyfrog, on 21 February 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yes this is still a total disaster for those of us who have made the biggest time and money commitment to this game.

It is still also pretty bad for everyone else. The new system is a longer grind and more expensive than the old system, especially as your stable of mechs increases.

The interesting thing about this is that I would honestly bet my eye teeth that the people with the largest c-bill balances are also the biggest supporters of the game in terms of real money purchases. What kind of a message is PGI sending by deliberately trying to bankrupt us?

I agree that it is still a problem for people who have mastered mechs already. To make it fair to their biggest supporters who are sporting the biggest stables, they ought to just allow any mastered mech to have 91 unlocked skill points, to be placed as the user sees fit. This way a previously mastered mech becomes a newly mastered mech.

In another thread I saw that our current mastery is worth about 72 points or so in the new tree (not counting c bills), so even if they just gave 72 free points for a mastered mech and made you grind out those last few points it would still be way better than what we have now, and would allow existing players to feel like they aren't loosing all the effort they previously put into their mechs.

[Morggo]

Well, first thought is you wouldn't get 91 free points because that is more value than people have in a 'mastered' mech today. You simply didn't earn all 91. There is debate about how many nodes equal today's 'mastery'.. let's call it 50 (maybe it's 60 or 70 but it can be determined) for sake of argument, could be give or take a few.

I too like something like this:

•You simply start with any corresponding nodes you have unlocked today unlocked for free in their new form (the 50 or so nodes). Heck, if you don't like'em, respect them to something else in the new trees. But you start with them.
•You get your spent GXP and modules refunded and excess banked mech XP for use in buying all the new nodes in the new trees. This gets you a jump on the full 91 point 'new mastery'

Done. No one loses any prior hours of grind. You start with what you have earned today. This combined with the PST2 proposed costs that are far more reasonable should remove the whole sting of the excessive change-to-new-system costs.

[soapyfrog]

Morggo, on 21 February 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Well, first thought is you wouldn't get 91 free points because that is more value than people have in a 'mastered' mech today. You simply didn't earn all 91. There is debate about how many nodes equal today's 'mastery'.. let's call it 50 (maybe it's 60 or 70 but it can be determined) for sake of argument, could be give or take a few.

I totally disagree. I have earned all 91 for all of my mastered mechs, I have modules I could place in them or if I wanted to I could buy more modules. So any mech I have mastered in my garage right now I can load up with modules and hit the game with that mech at the peak of it's capability.

I am not interested in going back and "levelling" mechs I have previously mastered. This is not a world of warcraft expansion where the level increase is justified by a bunch of appropriate new content to experience. No, I am simply being penalized, and then being required to play those same mechs in those same game modes a bunch more just to get them back to the point they were already at

It would be as if in world of warcraft instead of releasing a new expansion they just knocked everyone down 15-20 levels and then required them to level back up to cap through the same old content, but also charging them 100,000 gold per level.

Not that this game should be ANYTHING like world of warcraft! that's the point! The content in this game is new mechs and different builds and both of those things are now being heavily penalized with increased cost and grind.

[Malrock]

Morggo, on 21 February 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Well, first thought is you wouldn't get 91 free points because that is more value than people have in a 'mastered' mech today. You simply didn't earn all 91. There is debate about how many nodes equal today's 'mastery'.. let's call it 50 (maybe it's 60 or 70 but it can be determined) for sake of argument, could be give or take a few.

I too like something like this:

•You simply start with any corresponding nodes you have unlocked today unlocked for free in their new form (the 50 or so nodes). Heck, if you don't like'em, respect them to something else in the new trees. But you start with them.
•You get your spent GXP and modules refunded and excess banked mech XP for use in buying all the new nodes in the new trees. This gets you a jump on the full 91 point 'new mastery'

Done. No one loses any prior hours of grind. You start with what you have earned today. This combined with the PST2 proposed costs that are far more reasonable should remove the whole sting of the excessive change-to-new-system costs.

Yeah you are right the skill tree does offer more than what our current mastery does, so that is why the 72 would make more sense.

Under the old system 57,750 to master is the equivalent of approximately 72 skill points worth of exp. Allowing people to have just the points means that they effectively save 4.3 million c bills thereby significantly reducing the grind toward new mastery which as you correctly point out is deeper than the old mastery tree and prevents any regrind / loss of exp / progress.

One of the problems though is this still hurts new players, who are trying to get established, as there is still a hefty c bill sink, and no quick exp only way to get basic proficiency. The new player counts every last c bill and forcing them to pay a bunch of them to get these skills is going to really slow down their development. Plus it doesn't provide any guidance on the appropriate skills to take, although the consolidation of weapons should help with that somewhat. Probably need to consider tripling the c bill award after the first few matches just to give new players a fighting chance.