52 replies to this topic

[Evinthal]

Ignatius Spectre, on 20 July 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Through my years of Battletech play both tabletop and online that FASA's newtech tweaks to increase playership by making battles shorter, took away from the skill and tactics of battletech by introducing weapons that gave a higher percentage of quicker kills at the expense of gameplay. I understand that a weapons race is a natural progression of a galaxy at war as well as a militant society such as the clans, however the game of battletech in the 3025 era tech is the purest and most balanced form of the game, by speeding up the game with the influx of tarcomp, pulse, ER and Guass technology, nevermind clantech, that the game became more about headshots and XL engine crits and less about damage management, BTH modifiers and terrain. Battletech in a digital age should still be an issue of battlefield tactics and battlemech management and not a game of Counterstrike in giant robots. So essentially, how will the devs keep the game from boiling down to people running around in WHM-8D's taking killer potshots from the far side of the maps in 5/8/3 assaults?

This is in no way meant to be a flame, I am putting this out there right now as to be clear:

Statements like "Battletech in the 3025 era tech is the purest and most balanced form of the game" is an opinion, based on your own bias. Please, please, please keep that in mind as they can come off as sounding elitist or heaven forbid sounding like a hipster

What follows are my opinions, you are entitled to disagree, but please support your side. I have a habit of snarky remarks.

If anything the game became more skill based in my eyes simply because you have a lot more to know about and watch out for with all the different weapons and equipment floating about.

You mentioned MASC and TSM as being a way to close in fast to get shorter ranged weapons to bear. Yes, this is true, but again it is one more thing you have to watch out for, thus it adds to the meta-game and increases the games skill level.

I cannot stress how much I find allowing the wonton customization of units to be the source of most of these 'anything past X year is bad, and detracts from the game' arguments, and I simply have to say that if you are allowing custom unitsin the TT then yes, you are asking for powergaming/munchkining to happen. I feel that the customization rules were only intended (rules as intended versus rules as worded debate...) for campaign play where you actually had to have the parts, tech crews, and/or money to actually refit your mech, and not to be allowed in anything else.

I have also heard the argument that omni-mechs circumvent this by their 'pod' technology, but again, from what I know in tournament/sanctioned events and the like you can not take a base variant (the variant stripped of all pod weapons and equipment and only left with the hard mounted weapons/equipment) as a legal choice and then customize it how ever you want.

Since the game is set in 3049 we will only be dealing with Inner Sphere technology currently, and as it sits right now customization is limited to not only weight and critical slots, but also to hard points, where only certain weapons can go on certain places of a 'mech, thus increasing the need for variants to be used. Also different variants give you different experience from what I've read and come to understand, not just different chassis.

With the whole customization out of the way I will move on to Battle value.

Now I know battle value was not in the game to begin with, and that it was introduced with the Clans as a balancing factor because of the lighter and more powerful equipment that they brought with them, and to me it has done its job pretty well, granted recently with the new edition of the rules printing we have a battle value 2 now, but this was more of a revision of numbers to better reflect the value of weapons and equipment.

I hope we have a similar system included in MWO when the Clans invade as this would probably be one of the best ways to balance out the game, with the exception of maybe having the clans not be able to call in artillery support (as it does not really suit their styling)

As to the pot shots from across the map issue, from what we have seen of the two maps they have so far it looks like there will be a fair amount of cover to utilize in order to avoid fire, not to mention that this will not be like previous iterations of Mechwarrior where once I have you on 'radar' you get the red box of doom around you for forever and cannot escape, no, this will (hopefully) require people to scout for their team and locate targets. Not to mention the different modules they are working on for different roles (Scout, Assault/Defense, and Commander), and the different game types or ways to win a match (taking over the enemies 'base') So far things seem to be in good shape, and I am sure that they are already kicking around ideas on how to balance the 'O.P. New tech' of the Clans when it comes time.

Though I feel It would be a good idea for them to have a beta test server to actually try out the balancing on before a 'public' release so they can tweak it at least a bit here and there.

Also I'd really like to see servers or game types dedicated to specific eras so if people don't want to play with the new stuff they don't have to. One of the beautiful things about battletech is being able to play era specific matches.

[Ignatius Spectre]

Firstly, thanks for your well thought out and presented argument.

I agree, the statement that 3025 tech being the purest form of the game, is a personal opinion and one i formed through years of playing on battletech mux's those people who were fortunate enough to have played them will attest to the pure amount of skill and knowledge required to be successful, given you had to know what variant you were facing purely from the weapons they fired.

My argument that new tech takes away from the skill in the game was this. In old tech the only killer weapon in the game was an AC20, if you were slow enough to get caught by someone wielding one, hopefully you were armoured enough to have one or stuck in a Mackie or AC-10 Urbie, or had the ability to hit back, ANH or AC-20 Urbie. In a battle you would take multiple hits, be taking advantage of every terrain and speed bth modifier you could find all the while firing back, You could use your full loadouts, PPC's LL's LRM's ML's srm's in a battle there wasn't really a range 22+ BTH 10 instant killer that the closer you got the better the BTH got. So unless you took an AC20 or 2 PPC's to the dome you weren't done in a single shot.. anyone who got range 6 or less in a light was asking for it but they were still getting 11's.

To my knowledge FASA made the changes in the newer generations to speed up play to appeal to gamers with a shorter attention span, who felt 2 hours to resolve a single fight was absurd (especially in campaigns). So they made the changes to range, damage, and base to hit to allow for more damage in less time to make the game quicker and more exciting. With the introduction of the clans they definitely succeeded making things more exciting but like the majority of folks, barring the Urbanmech brigades, soon learned the hard way that Guass Rifles were fun, here to stay, and likely to take your head off. The single shot kill became the game. The BTH 9 partial to the head at 19 hexes was the norm, the skill of closing with your opponent, managing heat, weapon bth, (LL's and ML's bth's changed at different ranges but were normally tic'd together), facing's to minimize damage or bringing the right weapons to bear was typically reduced to Guass rifle ammo management.

Now I know Battletech is not Mechwarrior, in that one is first person and the other is a tabletop or Mux simulation, where the hits are determined by BTH not hand eye coordination, but there will be a lot of battletech in MWO and I would prefer to see a mechwarriors battletech skill out perform the pointer finger of a first person shooter veteran, head capping folks at max range.

Love the idea of era specific matches.

The time delay before the arrival of the clans and subsequent arms race is a welcome relief, however the Grey Death Legion, and the Wolfs Dragoons had Star League and Clan tech respectively, as well as the remnants of Clan Wolverine, or SL era Eridani Light Horse units.

I think this thread has started beating a dead horse as my original question had been answered, but any positive and constructive discussion that develops from this thread is most welcome.

Thanks again.

[sakkaku]

Wut. You can't aim at a persons head in TT. Not even with a targeting computer (except maybe knocked down? don't know the exact rules for that). So unless you rolled a really, really lucky shot you can't take someones head off at max range with a guass.

[Ignatius Spectre]

You can increase the odds by firing at them in partial cover, it reduces a head hit to 1 in 6

[Remarius]

OP, I have to be honest and preface this by saying reading your posts makes you sound very opinionated and we've seen probably 20 threads like this before with a player saying the game should be as they want it personally so I suspect thats factored into peoples replies.

1) The Dev's have said they started with the Table Top values and then changed them to fit play balance and an instant format as we don't have turns. Anything anyone says otherwise is pure speculation at this point ... or breaking NDA.

2) Each mech has hard points in addition to the TT tonnage/critical spaces rules. That really cuts down on how extreme variants can be. We haven't seen any news on electronic warfare slot mod needs as far as I'm aware so can't comment on that.

3) Have a look at the dev blogs on role warfare they're really useful as to the dev's vision of the game.

4) Rambling on about dice rolling target numbers is completely irrelevant to MWO as targetting is entirely down to your skill at targetting and your opponents ability to maneuver. Using TT... then saying "of course thats not relevant to MWO" as you did just undermines everything you're trying to argue.

5) The Dev's have already commented you can't be in one of the archetypal units like Wolf's Dragoons so trying to use that to justify your position against more advanced technology that they kept to themselves seems at best scare mongering. Read their dev blogs and Q&A answers - one of them has a specific list of what technology is in game.

By the way - insulting everyone that disagrees with you is just pathetic so lay off phrases that (in the way you use them) are clearly derogatory.

[Remarius]

I also wonder what sort of table top tournaments you played as back in the day official tournaments had you display the sheets of the mechs you used to avoid cheating. In MWO you have no idea of the loadout until you scan the mech and having everything in real time brings an immediacy to decision making that table top will never have.

[Ignatius Spectre]

The original question was already answered.

The topic has morphed.

I wasn't dictating anything, i asked a question. I also haven't demanded anything, the majority of the thread has been clarification or response to posts, its polite to acknowledge someone who spent the time to write a reply. As for opinionated I'm not arguing anything, I asked a question, reiterated some points, acknowledged others opinions, explained my view as to why I asked, but the majority of the posts I've made are defending that i'd made a post in the first place.

1. I agree I don't know the answer which is why i asked.

2. It wasn't the custom or experimental mechs or any variant that were the issue it was the players, who found a way to play the game in a way that the developers didnt anticipate it being played. The new technologies took away from the style of play that had been present in the 3025 era units. A good analogy would be guns versus swords. Swords took skills developed over time, guns had a shorter learning curve and less dedication.

3. The dev's vision of the game as it is now is why I became a founder and why I'm even here now. I don't doubt the sincerity of the devs, I only posed a question regarding an issue that had arisen in other battletech games ive played, most recently neveron, but 3030mux etc before, as well as in the mechcommander games single player (which i can only blame myself), and Mechwarrior IV ( army of madcats) and hoped to learn how they had mitigated the issue or if they were even aware of an issue that hadn't been seen before it hit the games in the past.

4. The die roles ect are the best reference I can make to an issue that arose in muxes which you could see your roles when you fired. The rules were a direct port from tabletop only modified to be realtime as the enermy was perpetually moving as were you, no turns. Mechwarrior is a 3d descendent of what the muxes were, indirectly in the way that Warcraft is a descendant of the MUD. There will be a way of determining hits and misses beyond a mouse click, otherwise whats the xp and skill points for? I make the assumption that the skill tree is from the rpg mechwarrior, if im mistaken ignore that part.

5. I wasn't suggesting that you could only stating that the tech was available in the time period in the IS. I'm not in the beta so can't say what is or isnt available in game.

As for being defensive, or offensive, I asked a question and was immediately attacked for having the audacity to ask a question, that may have been, (but wasn't) answered before. The question of how will mech classes be balanced ie light and assault, which wasnt my question was the one everyone answered. Only WardenWolf made any attempt to direct me to an answer to the question originally, alot of constructive feed back has resulted since. I've done my best to answer or clarify the point I make, I only criticized the people who responded in a negative critical manner and only once to establish that wasn't acceptable. I'm not sure where I insulted anyone.

Finally, the mux's weren't table top they were basically a real time text based game, kind of like piloting a submarine. You can't see whats around you but you get data telling you whats there. Difficult to explain. You would have to play.

[Ignatius Spectre]

And thanks for taking the time to read and post.

[Moriarte]

Ignatius Spectre, on 20 July 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

And thanks for taking the time to read and post.

All I like to add to that is that while we are of course entitled to our own opinion and expectations, we must not forget that even when MWO launches it still has a long way to go.

Lets just rejoice a little in the fact we will at least get something to start with that we haven't seen in a long time, no doubt extensive game play will provide more data and player input to take the game where it should be.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Ignatius I think I understand your concerns, though I don't know if I agree with them. Even with just 3025 tech, you had more than just the AC/20 as an 'insta kill' weapon if you got a head hit. The PPC and AC/10, since they would get thru the 9 points of armor and inflict internal structure damage, allowed you to roll on the crit table giving you the chance to 'kill' a mech with just one shot. The only weapons added later with this ability was the gauss rifle and the clan ER PPC, ER lg laser, and lg pulse laser. Also the newer weapons simply enlarged the engagement range, the BTH modifiers remained the same, it was simply easier to bring certain weapons into short or medium range brackets. I'm not saying that matches didn't become more lethal, though alot of that was the large **** to XL engines for so many models in TRO 3050 and on.

In MWO, terrain will still be a factor as in the TT simply because we do not have a 'radar' like in previous MW games. Now an enemy will only show up if you or a teammate have them in sight. While I imagine that areas of the map may be open enough to 'snipe', most seem to favor up close combat, possible supported by indirect LRM fire. Also some changes to the weapons have been made, in examle the standard lasers are now damage over time, so to inflict full damage you must keep the beam on target. The videos in the media section do give a good idea of how combat is being handled, as well as the aforementioned hardpoint limitation (to prevent 'boating') in the mechlab video.

[Ignatius Spectre]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the DoT modification, although it makes logical sense. I was relying on the 3 H int for the most part.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well another cool thing is now LRM's can be fired along the indirect rules from the TT. If you have a scout sighting for you (and the target is in range) you can target the enemy he is spotting and actually fire your LRM's 'over' terrain obstructions. Makes teams of Trebuchets/Catapaults and light scouts a good match up.

[Shadowscythe]

Will totally agree that clan is extremely unbalanced in BT TT... I dread the day that they show up in MWO.

As for having tech 2 in the game, it adds another layer of progression from a videogame standpoint.
It gives people an objective to work towards other than skills and mech efficiencies.
That is assuming we can't just buy all we want first day with our MCs lol

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The other thing that shows up from the Beta footage that we have seen is heat. It has a much more important effect than any previous game.
Although the weapons have a higher cycle time, it can't always be used as heat is applied immediately but seems to dissipate fairly slowly. This factor will mean that once again heat management, even with DHS will be crucial. From what I have seen I have the feeling that a heat neutral design in TT would run hot in game.
Level 2 tech will probably be available from the start unfortunately. Expect to see heavily modified mechs after people have played a match or two to see how things work. Those that have played beta will have optimised versions already..

[990Dreams]

Probably by time period of release on the market of your house.

[gregsolidus]

How are we still getting Founders with 10 posts and no knowledge of the actual game?

[Red squirrel]

Hi,

this is the single most troll-infected thread IÄve seen so far but then there is also an interresting discussion going on.

I for one am a bit concerned too. I hope we will not get spammed with clan tech next year..but who knows. Let's just hope for the best.


Edit: Oh yes 40v40 would be lovely

Edited by Red squirrel, 21 July 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ignatius Spectre, on 20 July 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Through my years of Battletech play both tabletop and online that FASA's newtech tweaks to increase playership by making battles shorter, took away from the skill and tactics of battletech by introducing weapons that gave a higher percentage of quicker kills at the expense of gameplay. I understand that a weapons race is a natural progression of a galaxy at war as well as a militant society such as the clans, however the game of battletech in the 3025 era tech is the purest and most balanced form of the game, by speeding up the game with the influx of tarcomp, pulse, ER and Guass technology, nevermind clantech, that the game became more about headshots and XL engine crits and less about damage management, BTH modifiers and terrain. Battletech in a digital age should still be an issue of battlefield tactics and battlemech management and not a game of Counterstrike in giant robots. So essentially, how will the devs keep the game from boiling down to people running around in WHM-8D's taking killer potshots from the far side of the maps in 5/8/3 assaults?

Every FPS ever becomes nothing about headshots imo

[Winters Flight]

514yer, on 21 July 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Every FPS ever becomes nothing about headshots imo

I know that in older MW games the actual head hit box was much smaller then it might appear. For example, the Atlas only took head shots if you hit one of the eyes, if I remember correctly.

[redplauge]

one of the interesting things ive noticed... the vast majority of the weapons the op has mentioned are all t3 or advanced tech (post wobbie jihad).
the introduction of the clans only brought about t2, normal gauss, er, pulse. targeting comps, c3, tag, ect. att (around 3048) these are just hitting the main house units as prototype equipment. now the clan tagcomp, does have a bit of headshot use but few weps can oneshot a mech to the head (ac20, gauss and clan erppc can if its not very heavily armored).