20 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

As a huge marine mammal, I should had bought Supernova mechpack (I could not buy this during the pre-order time.)

But, I found myself grinding my mechs for upcoming skill tree costs. Even with reduced costs, I have to play substantial amount to grind incredible amount of cbills (I have 100 mechs active, 160 total) AND xp required.

To think that, I just do not have any desire to buy new mechpacks since I will be spending enormous time to master all of my mechs as well as crazy cbill cost. I mean I am not going to fully enjoy these mechs for foreseeable future. So... why should I?


....I just don't think this is good idea for people who have a lot of mechs.... I mean the very same people who actually spend money on this game.

[Skribs]

That's the boat I'm in. I'll go from ~80 mastered Mechs (out of 160) to ~30. That means I will have an enormous time sink on my hands where I'm not buying any Mechs. Why buy Supernova or whatever is next when I already have stuff to level?

[Reno Blade]

Why grind now before the price is set in stone?

I will wait with any "grind" to when I really need it.
All my mechpacks have at least one variant which I never mastered (because rule of 3 Elite is enough for 2 variants).

If I have to level something, I would wait for the new skill tree, check a handful of variants which are interesting and were "bad" before (because of hardpoints or less quirks compared to other variant) and then use my time efficiently to experiment these elited/mastered variants with new skills without bias.

And in case I really really want a specific mech variant and have not enough HXP, I can use all that GXP that I don't need for modules now.

[50 50]

Do you use all of those mechs every day?
Wish I had that amount of time.

Let me ask you this.
Do you enjoy piloting your mechs?
Do you regularly pilot all of them?
Got a set of favourites that you use all the time or rotate through your stable enjoying them at different times?
Do you have an extra XP on some mechs that you might be able to shift over to GXP or a big chunk on a variant that will be available as historical XP to split over duplicates?
Got a heap of spare parts lying around in your inventory gathering dust?

Don't worry about it.
Skill up your favourites.
Enjoy jumping in the odd mech and dropping into battle.
Sell a bunch of those PPCs it's junk tech anyway.
Play the game, it's not work.

Edited by 50 50, 23 February 2017 - 11:06 PM.

[Skribs]

I actually do enjoy the majority of the Mechs that I have leveled. I have about 80 mastered, and I would say that in the past 2 months, I have played over 55 of them. There are at least a dozen others I will probably play in the next month. So yeah, I've played at least 2/3 of my mastered Mechs.

That's why I mastered them. So that I can take them out at any time with them benefiting from the skills I worked to acquire.

You say that I should play the game and not treat it as work...PGI is treating it as work by making it so we have to redo all of our leveling by farming for C-Bills just to skill up our Mechs.

[The Lighthouse]

50 50, on 23 February 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Do you use all of those mechs every day?
Wish I had that amount of time.

Let me ask you this.
Do you enjoy piloting your mechs?
Do you regularly pilot all of them?
Got a set of favourites that you use all the time or rotate through your stable enjoying them at different times?
Do you have an extra XP on some mechs that you might be able to shift over to GXP or a big chunk on a variant that will be available as historical XP to split over duplicates?
Got a heap of spare parts lying around in your inventory gathering dust?

Don't worry about it.
Skill up your favourites.
Enjoy jumping in the odd mech and dropping into battle.
Sell a bunch of those PPCs it's junk tech anyway.
Play the game, it's not work.

Exception of light mechs, I really have no favorites.
I usually play about 5~10 mechs per day. So yes, I evenly play all of my active mechs.

I mean... even with those who have favorites, the fact that us huge marine mammals losing mastered mechs is just unacceptable.

[chucklesMuch]

It is. I'm gonna wait and see. Not cancelling pre orders. Not adding to them. It's been great playing in more mastered mechs... especially ach and night gyrs... as I'm not levelling new stuff

[Bellum Dominum]

The Lighthouse, on 23 February 2017 - 11:20 PM, said:

Exception of light mechs, I really have no favorites.
I usually play about 5~10 mechs per day. So yes, I evenly play all of my active mechs.

I mean... even with those who have favorites, the fact that us huge marine mammals losing mastered mechs is just unacceptable.

Don't buy the hype. You aren't losing mastered mechs. Without having been able to get into the PTS yet but simply from reading announcements as well as others posts that aren't simply qq'n it appears that your currently 'mastered mech' will receive enough xp and cbills in the refund to be able to be put back at the 'same point' in the new system as it is at now. The new system is expanded, more options, etc, which means today's mastered mech compared to the new system mastered mech is more like a basic'd mech. (Simplification to explain) Example: old system has a total of 10 skill upgrade. New system: has a total of 100 skill upgrade and includes new skills as well as direct mech customization. End result: old system mastery does not even compare to new system mastery. If people were being honest about wanting to actually be fair then they'd only be arguing to ensure that their current system mastery can be met with the refund in the new system which it certainly appears that it can be when someone with 80 mechs mastered in the current system will have 30 mastered upon release of the new system when the old systems mastery is barely basic in the new system. If they were doing an honest conversion over they'd have all 80 mechs progressed along the new system to at least the degree they were at in the old system and then some with some extra progression. [again I'm going to check this out on the PTS myself to confirm or refute it for myself]

All in all don't buy into the hype of a few that are spamming the forums. Apply critical thinking and hop on and check out the PTS for yourself.

[Cygone]

50 50, on 23 February 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Do you use all of those mechs every day?
Wish I had that amount of time.

Let me ask you this.
Do you enjoy piloting your mechs?
Do you regularly pilot all of them?
Got a set of favourites that you use all the time or rotate through your stable enjoying them at different times?
Do you have an extra XP on some mechs that you might be able to shift over to GXP or a big chunk on a variant that will be available as historical XP to split over duplicates?
Got a heap of spare parts lying around in your inventory gathering dust?

Don't worry about it.
Skill up your favourites.
Enjoy jumping in the odd mech and dropping into battle.
Sell a bunch of those PPCs it's junk tech anyway.
Play the game, it's not work.

QFT

Skribs, on 23 February 2017 - 11:15 PM, said:

You say that I should play the game and not treat it as work...PGI is treating it as work by making it so we have to redo all of our leveling by farming for C-Bills just to skill up our Mechs.

PGI are not making you do anything, play the game for fun, if you play a Mech for fun play it more if you need a little bit more XP/c-bills

Edited by Cygone, 25 February 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Part of my fun is collecting and mastering. A large part of my fun is trying different builds.

Both are being directly targeted for punishment by these changes.

Sure maybe I will "just play", but it will be less for sure, since the above punishments remove incentive and motivation, and certainly no reason to ever spend money again, especially given how money and time are being disrespected and devalued.

[Bellum Dominum]

soapyfrog, on 25 February 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Part of my fun is collecting and mastering.

So you argue that this new system will require you to play more to be able to meet the new mastery, claim doing just that is part of the fun for you in the game and say that the system offers no incentive for you to play as much.... you do see the contradiction right?

[Skribs]

Bellum Dominum, on 25 February 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

So you argue that this new system will require you to play more to be able to meet the new mastery, claim doing just that is part of the fun for you in the game and say that the system offers no incentive for you to play as much.... you do see the contradiction right?

The fun is in the collection of mastered Mechs and the feeling of accomplishment you get for it. Re-leveling a Mech is not fun, or grinding on a handful of money-makers because you have XP for all your Mechs you need to remaster, but not the C-Bills, is not fun. It is work.

Now, if I had to touch half my Mechs again for an hour or so because the XP requirement is higher, then that could be fun. If I have to grind C-Bills for several months just so I can get back to where I was as far as number of Mechs that are ready to go into a match, it's not fun. Especially because during that time more Mechs are being released and I am further behind.

It's like playing a racing game and half way through the race everyone gets jumped back 5 laps. Hey, it's fun, because you get to drive more, right?

[Bellum Dominum]

Skribs, on 25 February 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

The fun is in the collection of mastered Mechs and the feeling of accomplishment you get for it. Re-leveling a Mech is not fun, or grinding on a handful of money-makers because you have XP for all your Mechs you need to remaster, but not the C-Bills, is not fun. It is work.

Now, if I had to touch half my Mechs again for an hour or so because the XP requirement is higher, then that could be fun. If I have to grind C-Bills for several months just so I can get back to where I was as far as number of Mechs that are ready to go into a match, it's not fun. Especially because during that time more Mechs are being released and I am further behind.

It's like playing a racing game and half way through the race everyone gets jumped back 5 laps. Hey, it's fun, because you get to drive more, right?

Well by your own argument you would always be behind anyways. I still think you are misunderstanding what is actually happening. Mastery in the new system is not the same as mastery of the current system. You aren't being put back 5 laps you are moving from nascar to formula 1.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 25 February 2017 - 08:54 PM.

[Skribs]

3 things wrong with that, Bellum:

• I'm making progress right now. I've played off and on, but I level Mechs faster than they put out new ones. So eventually, theoretically, I could catch up, or at the very least get most of the ones that I want. This just sets me several months behind in the grind, and possibly slows down the grind to the point I never will catch up. So, while right now it's possible I won't stay behind, in this it is a much longer road that may not end.
  
• I will be set back one way or another. I will have enough money for About 2500 skill points. That means I can get 27 Mechs their 91 points, or I can get 35 Mechs the 70 points (that is the rough equivalent of a current mastered Mech with modules) or I can get 50 Mechs 50 skill points (which is roughly a current mastered Mech without modules). I currently have 80 Mechs mastered. So I'm either going to have 1/3 of my Mechs "better" off, and the rest unskilled; just under half of my Mechs with about the same potential, and the rest unskilled; or I can have about 2/3 of my Mechs at less potential, and the rest unskilled.
  
• When we say "equivalent", Mechs are going to be different. Depending on the changes PGI made to the trees, Mechs will be tankier, have less damage output, and have access to more sensory modules. Heavily quirked Mechs will be nerfed, unless PGI fixes that problem.

The C-Bill cost will be a direct hindrance to my quest to own and level as many Mechs as I can. There is no way to argue against that. You can say "oh, but the new system is better!" but that doesn't change the fact that I'm essentially being reset to 33% of my current completion.

I'd be fine with the current XP cost if that was the only currency. An XP cost would mean I'd spend a little bit of time on each Mech to catch up. It would be fun to revisit some of my old Mechs for a little bit each to bring them back up to speed. It will not be fun to spend several months on a handful of specific hero mechs until I earn enough money to make up 66% of the leveling I've already done.

[Dogstar]

What Bellum and Cygone fail to see is that currently modules are optional, you can choose to spend extra c-bills on them, so effectively they become a 'reward' for those who have played more battles.

With the new system modules are not optional, the price of modules is baked into skill costs from the ground up, so effectively they become a 'tax' on progressing, aka a grind.

The difference between choosing to buy modules and being forced to buy modules (via skill nodes) is substantial.

Edited by Dogstar, 26 February 2017 - 08:02 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Bellum Dominum, on 25 February 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

So you argue that this new system will require you to play more to be able to meet the new mastery, claim doing just that is part of the fun for you in the game and say that the system offers no incentive for you to play as much.... you do see the contradiction right?

Yes if it takes longer to do things that is disincentive to play.

A feeling of loss of progress (via loss of xp during respec or a loss of c-bills due to arbitrarily increasing costs or a loss of time due to having to remaster old mechs) also removes motivation. It reveals MWO to be a Sisyphean task, where at any point that boulder you've rolled up the hill can be kicked down it again, for you to start over.

This new system represents a flat increase to the cost of mechs, whether you buy them new or owned them before, and a flat increase in time to grind per mech (with an acknowledgement that if you only ever want one variant per chassis it is shorter), and lastly a penalty to making changes on your mech over and above the cost of changing equipment.

Edited by soapyfrog, 26 February 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

soapyfrog, on 26 February 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

Yes if it takes longer to do things that is disincentive to play.

If .... and from all appearances it doesn't. Adds more to acquire which of course means more to do to acquire it.

soapyfrog, on 26 February 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

A feeling of loss of progress (via loss of xp during respec or a loss of c-bills due to arbitrarily increasing costs or a loss of time due to having to remaster old mechs) also removes motivation. It reveals MWO to be a Sisyphean task, where at any point that boulder you've rolled up the hill can be kicked down it again, for you to start over.

It's not an 'arbitrary increase' to costs. I don't see anything having their costs increased in fact it has been shown by a few people now that the actual costs are less. [Excluding respec of course which again I don't even think should be a thing unless major changes happen and then an across the board free respec to all mechs affected by said changes].

Here is the thing: What you are paying for (with both currencies: xp and cbill) is some drastic alterations to your mech much like what formula 1 cars under go when a new driver comes along.

You don't pay at all for repairs. Wow if they re-implented that I can't imagine the amount of qq that would be all over the forums and yet in all argument of 'fair' there should be repair costs. But no.. instead we have mechbay magic that handles that for us.

You don't pay for restocking ammo. See above.\

You don't pay medical costs for your pilot (Just being funny now)

All in all you really don't know just how good you have had it these past few years and that is probably why the majority of us that have been around since beta don't seem to be agreeing with your complaints.

soapyfrog, on 26 February 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

This new system represents a flat increase to the cost of mechs, whether you buy them new or owned them before, and a flat increase in time to grind per mech (with an acknowledgement that if you only ever want one variant per chassis it is shorter), and lastly a penalty to making changes on your mech over and above the cost of changing equipment.

Again nope on both parts. Seriously the song is getting old. Plug some numbers like others have for a change, step back from thinking that mastery in the new system is the same as mastery in the current because it is not.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 26 February 2017 - 10:39 PM.

[soapyfrog]

Bellum Dominum, on 26 February 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

All in all you really don't know just how good you have had it these past few years and that is probably why the majority of us that have been around since beta don't seem to be agreeing with your complaints.

I have been around since closed beta. Believe me I remember well what it was like... and I think the majority of old players are not too cool with these changes.

Bellum Dominum, on 26 February 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Again nope on both parts. Seriously the song is getting old. Plug some numbers like others have for a change, step back from thinking that mastery in the new system is the same as mastery in the current because it is not.

No matter how you slice it we are being charged c-bills for what we already had before. Even if there is more piled on top of that, just getting back roughly the original mastery skills is a going to be 2.5-3 million per mech. This alone is more than I can afford even after module refund. So flat (and extreme) increase in cost.

Getting back the module skills is going to be 1-2 million per mech. So simply getting back what I already had without thinking about the extra bonus skills that you think represents mystical new content is completely out of reach.

Increase in cost + more xp needed to master (even if it represents power creep) means more time needed to grind. That grind is necessary because the full 91 points are mandatory. Everyone needs them. To not get them would be a flat disadvantage. At least the xp is in the ballpark now, the c-bill cost is still insane.

This is a bitter pill for someone who has spent as much money on this game as I have.

[Skribs]

The costs are less if you have modules for every Mech. The costs are more if you don't, and you module swap between Mechs. Most people don't have modules for every Mech, especially whales who have purchased a lot of Mechs. This has been demonstrated in every thread whenever the "it's actually cheaper" is brought up. It is not cheaper for the majority of whales, who should be PGI's target audience because that's how the game stays alive.

Quote

If .... and from all appearances it doesn't. Adds more to acquire which of course means more to do to acquire it.

Okay, first of all...are you saying it's more expensive or less expensive? Because this suggests you agree the cost is higher, if you think it will increase playtime.

Second, the first thing it does is subtract. Based on the numbers provided, I won't be able to get all of my Mechs to the capability they currently have. So I will start off by having things subtracted.

Third, if I ever reach the point where I have every Mech and they are mastered, and I am content until the next Mech is released, I won't suddenly stop playing or be done with the game. At that point, I wouldn't have to worry about XP (and maybe C-Bills) and I could just play the game. I do that sometimes now, but I could do that more if I had everything mastered. If I somehow won a PGI lottery and they gave me every Mech in the game, fully mastered, and a hundred trillion C-Bills to buy any equipment I needed or swap upgrades endlessly, and the grind was truly over, I would still play the game, because the game itself is fun.

Now, leveling is fun, and it is something I enjoy doing, but I wouldn't enjoy having my Mechs reduced in capacity for the sake of giving me more leveling to do. I have plenty of it to do still, and it will be a long time before I hit that theoretical point where I have nothing left to buy/level. If that was the only thing keeping me playing (leveling Mechs) I wouldn't need PGI to artificially inflate it for me.

TL;DR:
Making me grind more isn't my idea of giving me more content.

[Bellum Dominum]

Nothing is mandatory #1. If it was mandatory to have a mech mastered then how do people even get them to the point of being mastered? flawed argument in other words

No I in no way even began to insinuate a higher cost. Nice try though

So you didn't buy modules.... please explain why because some people didn't do something that they should get favored over others that did... that is exactly what you are asking for. "I didn't do what all these others did so I should be brought up to their level" ... BS

being charged cbills for what we had before... besides the fact that we didn't have the proposed system before you mean.

If you are going to do the math correctly you start with 0 and then start adding the variables to the equation. Starting from a negative is... well as much a false way to start as your argument that you should get what others have without doing what others did to get it.