67 replies to this topic

[Fleeb the Mad]

I bought the supernova knowing full well it wasn't going to be the new assault king. It IS the new hotness without a doubt though.

Even putting its energy dependence aside, the special paint schemes are gorgeous.

Its performance has been solid, at least so far. Comments about its engine cap and those about similar assaults like the prospective Annihilator are valid criticisms in comparison to faster contemporaries. Faster mechs are easier. That doesn't make them useless though. That sort of thing is less about the machine and more about the pilot. The crux of being a good assault pilot is in how well you handle a slow machine.

Assault mechs were long considered second in piloting difficulty following lights, because handling a slow mech is unforgiving. Pilots have to plan much further ahead because they don't have the speed to move to respond to changes.

Looking at the potential of a machine with two IS AC10s and two IS AC 20's doing salvo fire without ghost heat is frightening. And appealing. If the speed is a turn off, well, fine. If it was supposed to appeal to everyone it'd be a mid-range Clan heavy.

[Y E O N N E]

Fleeb the Mad, on 24 February 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

Looking at the potential of a machine with two IS AC10s and two IS AC 20's doing salvo fire without ghost heat is frightening. And appealing. If the speed is a turn off, well, fine. If it was supposed to appeal to everyone it'd be a mid-range Clan heavy.

Not frightening once you realize that 2x AC/20 and 2x AC/10, together, consume 34 slots and 52 tons and are thus impossible to run together with any level of threat. Even 4x AC/10 is non-threatening. 2x PPC + 2x AC/10, though, is quite threatening...but no more than a Night Gyr.

You have to keep all of that in perspective.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Not frightening once you realize that 2x AC/20 and 2x AC/10, together, consume 34 slots and 52 tons and are thus impossible to run together with any level of threat. Even 4x AC/10 is non-threatening. 2x PPC + 2x AC/10, though, is quite threatening...but no more than a Night Gyr.

You have to keep all of that in perspective.

At that point would rather do 2 PPC 2 Gauss...

On a 100 tonner, isn't 3 AC10 2PPC a possibility? 56 tons of weapons and ammo.. you can run it on a 100 ton assault with an XL 300. Pretty slow, but still.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

At that point would rather do 2 PPC 2 Gauss...

On a 100 tonner, isn't 3 AC10 2PPC a possibility? 56 tons of weapons and ammo.. you can run it on a 100 ton assault with an XL 300. Pretty slow, but still.

I know the Devastator DVS-2 does two PPC (LT/RT) and 2 GR (LA/RA), with 4 Mlas as back up (RT/LT/CT®/H)... she uses standard internals and armour (18.5t, near max), with 14 DHS and a 300XL....


You can cram 3 AC/10's and 2 PPC's while retaining the 14 DHS, but it only leaves you with 2t of ammo....

Edited by Metus regem, 24 February 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Not frightening once you realize that 2x AC/20 and 2x AC/10, together, consume 34 slots and 52 tons and are thus impossible to run together with any level of threat. Even 4x AC/10 is non-threatening. 2x PPC + 2x AC/10, though, is quite threatening...but no more than a Night Gyr.

You have to keep all of that in perspective.

not sure the 4xAC10 is entirely non threatening. A lot depends on hitboxes... and of course, LFEs. But in Remlab, I am able to make a 300 XL (which is a full ton and a half heavier than a 240 LFE, 240 being the theoretical max on the ANH without boosts) with 18.5 tons of armor, 4x AC10 and 8 tons of ammo. Hardpoint's aren't ideal, but I'm sorry, I got to say you're a bit daft if you think 40 PPFLD every 2.5 seconds with nary a glance at the heatscale is non threatening. Ignore that fore a moment and it cores you out. I'd probably prefer that to the 2xPPC and 2x AC10 for the precise velocity, and much lower heat. PPCs don't actually improve it's firepower or hardpoint location, so I don't see how that switch makes a huge difference other than having a bit more range in some circumstances. Call me nuts, but I think I'd prefer the higher RoF and endurance (sure you run out of ammo... but 8 tons is bloody 1600 dmg so I doubt you will use it up), for less heat, myself.

Am I going to call it "Metalicious"? No. But non threatening... IDK... maybe we have different meanings of the word.

Metus regem, on 24 February 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

I know the Devastator DVS-2 does two PPC (LT/RT) and 2 GR (LA/RA), with 4 Mlas as back up (RT/LT/CT®/H)... she uses standard internals and armour (18.5t, near max), with 14 DHS and a 300XL....


You can cram 3 AC/10's and 2 PPC's while retaining the 14 DHS, but it only leaves you with 2t of ammo....

i don't see wanting to use an XL in that beasty. LFEs, perhaps..but not XLs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 24 February 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

I know the Devastator DVS-2 does two PPC (LT/RT) and 2 GR (LA/RA), with 4 Mlas as back up (RT/LT/CT®/H)... she uses standard internals and armour (18.5t, near max), with 14 DHS and a 300XL....


You can cram 3 AC/10's and 2 PPC's while retaining the 14 DHS, but it only leaves you with 2t of ammo....

Not a fan of the Devastator personally, Sagittaire would be better in every way for PPC-Gauss.

I checked out an Atlas on smurfy, should have enough tonnage and slots for 3 AC10s and 2 PPCs, 6 tons of ammo, 11 DHS (with the 11th in the engine). 5 tons of ammo is 1000 damage worth, so you might get away with dropping the 6th ton and adding another DHS.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 February 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 February 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

not sure the 4xAC10 is entirely non threatening. A lot depends on hitboxes... and of course, LFEs. But in Remlab, I am able to make a 300 XL (which is a full ton and a half heavier than a 240 LFE, 240 being the theoretical max on the ANH without boosts) with 18.5 tons of armor, 4x AC10 and 8 tons of ammo. Hardpoint's aren't ideal, but I'm sorry, I got to say you're a bit daft if you think 40 PPFLD every 2.5 seconds with nary a glance at the heatscale is non threatening. Ignore that fore a moment and it cores you out. I'd probably prefer that to the 2xPPC and 2x AC10 for the precise velocity, and much lower heat. PPCs don't actually improve it's firepower or hardpoint location, so I don't see how that switch makes a huge difference other than having a bit more range in some circumstances. Call me nuts, but I think I'd prefer the higher RoF and endurance (sure you run out of ammo... but 8 tons is bloody 1600 dmg so I doubt you will use it up), for less heat, myself.

Am I going to call it "Metalicious"? No. But non threatening... IDK... maybe we have different meanings of the word.


i don't see wanting to use an XL in that beasty. LFEs, perhaps..but not XLs.

The DVS-2 came out before LFE's sadly.... She's a Star League design that got resurrected in TRO 3058

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Not a fan of the Devastator personally, Sagittaire would be better in every way for PPC-Gauss.

I checked out an Atlas on smurfy, should have enough tonnage and slots for 3 AC10s and 2 PPCs, 6 tons of ammo, 11 DHS (with the 11th in the engine)

Riding PPC's with only 11 DHS is a bit toasty in MWO... Even pushing 15 DHS gets toasty with just using two PPC's in a live MWO envrionment.

Edited by Metus regem, 24 February 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 24 February 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

The DVS-2 came out before LFE's sadly.... She's a Star League design that got resurrected in TRO 3058

I'm aware of that, but I'm saying here, in MWO, (assuming we actually get our LFEs) that one would not be well advised to use an XL. An IS XL would instantly move old Blimpy here to the "non threatening" category.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 February 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

I'm aware of that, but I'm saying here, in MWO, (assuming we actually get our LFEs) that one would not be well advised to use an XL. An IS XL would instantly move old Blimpy here to the "non threatening" category.

A lot of units will get a lot meaner with LFE's I think... I know my 6R Warhammer will, drop that standard 280 for a 280 LFE and I'll be laughing.

[PAINLESS 42]

The problem is one of timing. There was a huge derth of Clan Assault mechs for the longest time. The Dire was slow, the Warhawk was hard point limited. Then you get the Gladiator and Executioner which are very niche mechs. In that world the Supernova is Excellent. Unfortunately for the SN, it comes out after, an is bookended by two other excellent Clan Assault mechs,The Marauder IIC and the Kodiak. It's still a good mech, but not the stand-out game-changer it would have been 2 years ago.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 February 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

not sure the 4xAC10 is entirely non threatening. A lot depends on hitboxes... and of course, LFEs. But in Remlab, I am able to make a 300 XL (which is a full ton and a half heavier than a 240 LFE, 240 being the theoretical max on the ANH without boosts) with 18.5 tons of armor, 4x AC10 and 8 tons of ammo. Hardpoint's aren't ideal, but I'm sorry, I got to say you're a bit daft if you think 40 PPFLD every 2.5 seconds with nary a glance at the heatscale is non threatening. Ignore that fore a moment and it cores you out. I'd probably prefer that to the 2xPPC and 2x AC10 for the precise velocity, and much lower heat. PPCs don't actually improve it's firepower or hardpoint location, so I don't see how that switch makes a huge difference other than having a bit more range in some circumstances. Call me nuts, but I think I'd prefer the higher RoF and endurance (sure you run out of ammo... but 8 tons is bloody 1600 dmg so I doubt you will use it up), for less heat, myself.

Am I going to call it "Metalicious"? No. But non threatening... IDK... maybe we have different meanings of the word.

Counterpoint:

You are running a 300 size engine in a 100 ton 'Mech with an optimum range of 450 meters.

Maybe it was hyperbole to say 4x AC/10 is non-threatening, but it is insignificant compared to what we already have. Probably enjoyable in public matches and that's fine, but overall? Not worth fretting over because it's not going to creep anything.

Ignoring for a moment how hard it will be to keep pace and how your lack of speed hampers your team's ability to dictate a fight, that same weakness will also compel you to power-position with it, and it doesn't have the range to power-position well and the longer-ranged poke builds will make mockery of it. The Mauler, closest comparable IS 'Mech we have, only works as well as it does for its speed because it can reliably engage targets at 620+ meters. Ditto the quad-Gauss KDK.

Also, if you ignore anything reasonable for a moment it will core you out already, so you will forgive me if I'm not impressed at that thought alone.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

At that point would rather do 2 PPC 2 Gauss...

On a 100 tonner, isn't 3 AC10 2PPC a possibility? 56 tons of weapons and ammo.. you can run it on a 100 ton assault with an XL 300. Pretty slow, but still.

Yeah, was just thinking the same thing about 3x AC/10 + 2x PPC. Seems like an extremely inefficient way to get 50 PPFLD, though, and something you'd only use to avoid a Gauss in an XL ST.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 February 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Yeah, was just thinking the same thing about 3x AC/10 + 2x PPC. Seems like an extremely inefficient way to get 50 PPFLD, though, and something you'd only use to avoid a Gauss in an XL ST.

Its significantly more DPS than the 2 Gauss 2 PPC with the same alpha, unlike the 2 AC10 2 PPC build which is a little more DPS for less alpha. Without any modifiers, max DPS of 2 Gauss 2 PPC is 10.22, where 3 AC10s and 2 PPCs is 17 DPS, sure you can't sustain it for that long, but even without the PPCs, its 12 DPS that runs pretty cool.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Its significantly more DPS than the 2 Gauss 2 PPC with the same alpha, unlike the 2 AC10 2 PPC build which is a little more DPS for less alpha. Without any modifiers, max DPS of 2 Gauss 2 PPC is 10.22, where 3 AC10s and 2 PPCs is 17 DPS, sure you can't sustain it for that long, but even without the PPCs, its 12 DPS that runs pretty cool.

But you have to get within 450 meters and you can do the same thing even better with a pair of cUAC/10s and cER PPCs.

3x AC/10 is actually very good for mid-range push, though I'd suggest you ditch the PPCs and run medium lasers (or isERML when they come out) instead so you can run faster and more heat efficient (assuming PGI doesn't bork it up doing 5 heat...which they very well might). Alternatively, since we have all this theoretical free tonnage, drop the AC/10s for three or four UAC/5s and run that with PPCs. You end up saving a slot in the process, you get the same 17 DPS without even double-tapping, and you get more complementary range. You can already run it on a KGC, but geometry and slightly sub-par layout holds it down (need 1xB+1xE in each ST and 2xB in one arm with no LAA so we can strip the opposite arm and get more free tonnage for a bigger engine with more DHS slots...because we're out of slots).

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 February 2017 - 03:34 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

But you have to get within 450 meters and you can do the same thing even better with a pair of cUAC/10s and cER PPCs.

3x AC/10 is actually very good for mid-range push, though I'd suggest you ditch the PPCs and run medium lasers (or isERML when they come out) instead so you can run faster and more heat efficient (assuming PGI doesn't bork it up doing 5 heat...which they very well might). Alternatively, since we have all this theoretical free tonnage, drop the AC/10s for three or four UAC/5s and run that with PPCs. You end up saving eight slots in the process, you get the same 17 DPS without even double-tapping, and you get more complementary range. You can already run it on a KGC, but geometry and slightly sub-par layout holds it down (need 1xB+1xE in each ST and 2xB in one arm with no LAA so we can strip the opposite arm and get more free tonnage).

Hmm Ultras...

I forgot about those. Probably will just want to do 2 IS UAC10s and 2 PPCs...

You can do 3 UAC5s and 2 PPCs on a Mauler. With an LFE you can go even faster... so there's that.

The problem with all the UAC5s is that you need more ammo than you do with 3 AC10s so that ends up stinging.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 February 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

The problem with all the UAC5s is that you need more ammo than you do with 3 AC10s so that ends up stinging.

Possibly. I think 150 rounds is more than enough to support a 12 v 12 match, and that's without having PPCs to back it up. Should be okay for 8 v 8. With that amount of DPS (add a max of 12 for double taps, so 29) whoever is in your crosshairs should be dead damn quick or you aren't doing something right. In terms of poking, you get 37 full blasts with UAC/5s...also more than enough for an 8v8 match considering dual Gauss only gives you 25-30.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Hmm Ultras...

I forgot about those. Probably will just want to do 2 IS UAC10s and 2 PPCs...

You can do 3 UAC5s and 2 PPCs on a Mauler. With an LFE you can go even faster... so there's that.

Way more excited at the prospect of 2x AC/10 + 4x LAC/5 on the Mauler. Hopefully with LFE.

Edit: I counted those slots wrong, will need STD. Boo. 5x LAC/5 + 2x PPC, though...

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 February 2017 - 03:50 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Way more excited at the prospect of 2x AC/10 + 4x LAC/5 on the Mauler. Hopefully with LFE.

Edit: I counted those slots wrong, will need STD.

6 LAC/5s is probably good enough, yeah?

[Weeny Machine]

If you guys complain about the Super Nova be sure to never make complains about a too low TTK in this game. Step back for a second and ask yourself if every new mech needs to be "über" and push the power creep one nodge further up

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 February 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

6 LAC/5s is probably good enough, yeah?

450 meters. A little worried about the lack of speed with such a light, mid-ranged payload. Perhaps bump to XL and shove a pair of PPCs in? 50 FLD, no Gauss explosions, 180 rounds.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 February 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Not frightening once you realize that 2x AC/20 and 2x AC/10, together, consume 34 slots and 52 tons and are thus impossible to run together with any level of threat. Even 4x AC/10 is non-threatening. 2x PPC + 2x AC/10, though, is quite threatening...but no more than a Night Gyr.

You have to keep all of that in perspective.

Speaking of perspective, it's clear that mine and yours are different. It looks to me it'd be great fun in the public queue in a future where that stock 200 engine didn't affect its turn and acceleration rates. If I remembered its actuator placement correctly, anyhow. Not meta,no. That wasn't the point.

In the context of the meta it'd be hampered by its shape regardless of any other features. It wouldn't be an Annihilator if the guns were in its shoulders. Still I wouldn't be quite so dismissive of four AC-10s, given how much more DPS they can put out over PPCs in the same range bracket. It wouldn't be a poke mech but that doesn't make it useless.

Given engine size may become much less relevant in the future I'm actually quite interested in what might happen with it.