90 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

I believe your wrong about PPCs not having recoil. Its the only energy weapon that does. The quote is from SARNA.net

"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Uh, duh! It's a mathematical certainty. My point is that there is such little mass per shot that it's irrelevant.

[Tlords]

Snowbluff, on 25 February 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Uh, duh! It's a mathematical certainty. My point is that there is such little mass per shot that it's irrelevant.

The P in PPC stands for particle. These Particles have mass, accelerated to near the speed of light. This generates lots of heat, this is why they are so hot to use. The damage on the receiving end is ballistic...

Physics 101

- Newton's Second Law: Force = mass x acceleration (F=ma)
- Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Tiny mass (times) huge acceleration getting the particles to near the light speed = insane force... thus large recoil.

Edited by Tlords, 25 February 2017 - 09:23 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

The P in PPC stands for particle. These Particles have mass, accelerated to near the speed of light. This generates lots of heat, this is why they are so hot to use. The damage on the receiving end is ballistic...

Physics 101

- Newton's Second Law: Force = mass x acceleration (F=ma)
- Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Tiny mass (times) huge acceleration getting the particles to near the light speed = insane force... thus large recoil.

And flashlights shoot you off like a rocket right?
I mean are you not reading my posts? Or did you miss the part where I said they were particles?

PPCs only fire particles at 1,300 m/s in MWO anyway. I could see a complaint waged against the gauss rifle, which is 15 times as energetic as actual APFSDS rounds, which produce a lot of recoil on 100 ton machines in real life.

[Requiemking]

Snowbluff, on 25 February 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

And flashlights shoot you off like a rocket right?
I mean are you not reading my posts? Or did you miss the part where I said they were particles?

PPCs only fire particles at 1,300 m/s in MWO anyway. I could see a complaint waged against the gauss rifle, which is 15 times as energetic as actual APFSDS rounds, which produce a lot of recoil on 100 ton machines in real life.

Except for the fact that the Gauss rifle is a coilgun, not a railgun. Unlike a railgun, a coilgun doesn't use an explosive force to launch it's round, thus it generates less recoil than a railgun and especially a traditional tank cannon.

[MacClearly]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again

jump sniping has never been a positive addition to the game at any point in this games history. so why continue to allow it at all?

From what I understand its also mentioned in the novels that shooting accurately while jumping is virtually impossible. And I know in battletech theres a hefty accuracy penalty whenever you use jumpjets. So it really shouldnt be allowed in MWO for a multitude of reasons.

In your opinion it has never been a positive.

A good jump sniper can really have an impact on the game. A couple or few can even dictate map position. They can basically do what lurmers do but much better and with a degree of skill.

It is however not something that can't be countered. There are also very few in the population that are actually good at it. Most jump way too high and expose themselves so much it is easy to hit them with every weapon except perhaps Clan large lasers.

It often seems that the people who don't like meta or poptarting or whatever happens to be a big trend don't know how to counter it properly and instead of trying to learn want the offending difficulty removed.

I am by no means one of those people in this game who are good at it, but I appreciate it and am getting better. I used to hate ppc's because I was so bad with them and now they are one of my favourite weapons. Why don't you try poptarting for a week and see if with some practise and success you don't change your mind?

[Tlords]

Snowbluff, on 25 February 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

And flashlights shoot you off like a rocket right?

Now I am confused by your statements. I think your missing some understanding of the difference between photons and particles. A flashlight does not use particles. A flashlight emits photons. Photons have no mass. Thus, they exert no force. A PPC does.

That's why when you hit a mech with a PPC in MWO it moves their torso.

[Tlords]

MacClearly, on 25 February 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

A good jump sniper can really have an impact on the game.

I agree. The sad think is I am good at it. Because of this, I want penalties to be in place to make me and others think twice about bringing a Hunchback IIC (with 2 ERPPCs), a NightGyr with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC, or 2 ERPPC and a Gauss, or a Summoner with two ERPPCs.

The are two good with few downsides.

[Bulletsponge0]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

I agree. The sad think is I am good at it. Because of this, I want penalties to be in place to make me and others think twice about bringing a Hunchback IIC (with 2 ERPPCs), a NightGyr with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC, or 2 ERPPC and a Gauss, or a Summoner with two ERPPCs.

The are two good with few downsides.

the downside is they are very very limited in a brawl, and they can't maintain a high dps. If you see a jump sniper and you're in a brawler build, close on it as fast as you can and you'll crush it. Every playstyle in this game has a counter to it. Jump sniping is no different.

[Snowbluff]

Requiemking, on 25 February 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

Except for the fact that the Gauss rifle is a coilgun, not a railgun. Unlike a railgun, a coilgun doesn't use an explosive force to launch it's round, thus it generates less recoil than a railgun and especially a traditional tank cannon.

That's a case of the second law again. You need an opposite reaction. The magnetic coils push on the round, the round pushes back.

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

Now I am confused by your statements. I think your missing some understanding of the difference between photons and particles. A flashlight does not use particles. A flashlight emits photons. Photons have no mass. Thus, they exert no force. A PPC does.

That's why when you hit a mech with a PPC in MWO it moves their torso.

Photons are a particle. It says so in the article you linked.

[Clanner Scum]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Why should a Blackjack be a better jump sniper than a Phoenix Hawk or Vindicator?

Please tell me more on your thoughts on this....

Well why not? If all the mechs are the same in every regard then that just removes mech diversity from the game. So yes, Mechs A, B and C should all be good at doing P but Mechs D, E and F should not be good at P because they're better at M. So no I don't think your phoenix hawk should be a better jump sniper than my hunchback IIC. Because your phoenix hawk is already fast as hell and has good torso twisting.

[MacClearly]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

I agree. The sad think is I am good at it. Because of this, I want penalties to be in place to make me and others think twice about bringing a Hunchback IIC (with 2 ERPPCs), a NightGyr with 2 Gauss and an ERPPC, or 2 ERPPC and a Gauss, or a Summoner with two ERPPCs.

The are two good with few downsides.

Taking a small snip of what I said doesn't put it in context nor does it make your argument very good. Jump sniping is not dominating the game right now. It might be trending and getting more common than a little while ago, but it is not making games impossible to play.

[Mystere]

Is this the proper time to say that a convergence-based solution is the answer to a whole lot of problems?

[xe N on]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again

jump sniping has never been a positive addition to the game at any point in this games history. so why continue to allow it at all?

From what I understand its also mentioned in the novels that shooting accurately while jumping is virtually impossible. And I know in battletech theres a hefty accuracy penalty whenever you use jumpjets. So it really shouldnt be allowed in MWO for a multitude of reasons.

Why should jump sniping not exist? It's a legit combat tactic, the same as any other. There are already a lot of mechanics that punish jump sniping:

- you need to equip at least 3 jump jets for a medium and even more for any other class
- you produce heat and don't cool down while not on the ground
- you can only aim while falling thus increasing your time of exposure
- falling damage on legs

Using 2 ERPPCs on a HBK-IIC-A gives you an alpha of 30, of what 10 are splash. That's no real threat considering other build with alphas > 50. I scored only high in my poptart Hunchy2 if the complete game was peek-a-boo and I was largely ignored by the enemy. If you don't want to be harassed by poptart, push or use cover that is high enough.

There are a lot of mechanics that are much worser for game play. For example
- imbalance between IS and clan mechs
- boating weapons in general
- mixed meta load outs with 2 Gauss 2 ERPPC (= 50 pin point damage and 60 alpha)
- no-skill-laser alphas
- focus on damage only resulting in a score-distribution of mech classes where assault > heavy > medium > light.
- Assault and heavy mechs that are much to agile

Jump sniping is something that comes at the very bottom of the list.

PS: And by the way: the reason that the PHX is a lot of worse jump sniper than the e.g. HBK-IIC is a direct result of nerfing jump sniping.

My SDH used to be great jump sniper, because the exposure time back than was a lot of shorter. Higher thrust, faster ascend, etc. Now you need high hard points to minimize exposure time.

Edited by xe N on, 25 February 2017 - 11:25 PM.

[MacClearly]

Mystere, on 25 February 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

Is this the proper time to say that a convergence-based solution is the answer to a whole lot of problems?

No the time to say that is never...

[Cyrion]

I've put in about 800 games in QP over the past couple of months. About 100 or so in FP. Can't remember a single game where a majority or even more than 1 or 2 people were jump sniping.

Lurms? All day every day baby.

Laser Vomit? Rave isn't dead in MWO.

Huge ballistic/SRM alphas with lots of deathball NASCAR nonsense? Heck, every day is Sunday round these parts and we love turning to the left.

Jump sniping? Oh, wow. There's like one Viper or Shadowcat out there trying to be cute. Yawn. Here I am moving back into cover and completely ignoring them.

I actually have tried using the meta cheese 2gauss/peep setup on the Gyr since people were crying about how good it was. Obviously I'm not anywhere near the best with it, but yeah, I did have some success with it. The question is, why would you bother when it's easier to have more success with laser vomit or dakka. Damn near no skill required with those builds and you don't have to worry about literally any Mech in the game no-lubing your butt if it gets anywhere close to you.

Watching videos from the poptarting meta from years ago with the Highlanders it was clear it was out of hand at that point. Now, if anything, it's under-tuned. PPCs run hot. Gauss requiring charging and blow up if you even sneeze on them. Leg damage is real. And JJs are essentially worthless on anything over 50 tons. Even on the Gyr they feel like crap. Trying to jump up behind small buildings is a hoot. Just give me about 10 seconds guys! Honest, I'll be able to poke my arms over any time now! Oh crap, you all just dumped 50+ damage alphas into me because I was up a fraction of a second too long. D'oh!

[Mcgral18]

Cyrion, on 26 February 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

I've put in about 800 games in QP over the past couple of months. About 100 or so in FP. Can't remember a single game where a majority or even more than 1 or 2 people were jump sniping.

Lurms? All day every day baby.

Laser Vomit? Rave isn't dead in MWO.

Huge ballistic/SRM alphas with lots of deathball NASCAR nonsense? Heck, every day is Sunday round these parts and we love turning to the left.

Jump sniping? Oh, wow. There's like one Viper or Shadowcat out there trying to be cute. Yawn. Here I am moving back into cover and completely ignoring them.

I actually have tried using the meta cheese 2gauss/peep setup on the Gyr since people were crying about how good it was. Obviously I'm not anywhere near the best with it, but yeah, I did have some success with it. The question is, why would you bother when it's easier to have more success with laser vomit or dakka. Damn near no skill required with those builds and you don't have to worry about literally any Mech in the game no-lubing your butt if it gets anywhere close to you.

Watching videos from the poptarting meta from years ago with the Highlanders it was clear it was out of hand at that point. Now, if anything, it's under-tuned. PPCs run hot. Gauss requiring charging and blow up if you even sneeze on them. Leg damage is real. And JJs are essentially worthless on anything over 50 tons. Even on the Gyr they feel like crap. Trying to jump up behind small buildings is a hoot. Just give me about 10 seconds guys! Honest, I'll be able to poke my arms over any time now! Oh crap, you all just dumped 50+ damage alphas into me because I was up a fraction of a second too long. D'oh!

But your anecdotal experience doesn't fit the top end of MWO

LRMs are worthless
Lasevomit isn't sustainable and can not be used effectively past 500M for the grand majority of chassis (ERML range nerf), with the exception of ERLL boats (which have a unique extreme range niche, where projectiles are unreliable)


That leaves Dakka (facetime=risk)
Brawling (SRMs, SPLs, ACs, Flamers)
Poke (Gauss, ERPPC)

Poke has the highest reward for the least risk, but isn't as overwhelming as it was in the HGN era (because LOL 1.5 damage SRMs).

If you can control a power position, that is, where a team cannot push your side without getting rekt, the Poke deck has a distinct advantage of being able to hit first, and hit harder.


Smaller sizes lend to brawling being more viable (less firepower, less likely to instagib)


But, what do I know. This is just my observations

[xe N on]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

If you can control a power position, that is, where a team cannot push your side without getting rekt, the Poke deck has a distinct advantage of being able to hit first, and hit harder.

And in my experiences poke mechs do hill or corner peeking much more often than jump sniping. But, ok, maybe in competitive game play aside PUGland it is another world.

At least for me Gauss and PPC / Laser works quite good without any jump jets, e.g. on my HBR, TBR (that only got 1 jump jet) and SCR.

Edited by xe N on, 26 February 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Tlords]

Clanner Scum, on 25 February 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

If all the mechs are the same in every regard then that just removes mech diversity from the game. So yes, Mechs A, B and C should all be good at doing P but Mechs D, E and F should not be good at P because they're better at M. So no I don't think your phoenix hawk should be a better jump sniper than my hunchback IIC. Because your phoenix hawk is already fast as hell and has good torso twisting.

Clanner Scum brings up a good point. Should mechs be balanced? Even though the phoenix hawk is faster, can carry ECM, and has good torso twisting...at the higher levels of play and at the competitive level I see lots of Hunchback IICs and seldom a Phoenix Hawk.

If there should be balance, How do you balance mechs for jumpsniping?

Edited by Tlords, 26 February 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Tarogato]

Bulletsponge0, on 25 February 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

the downside is they are very very limited in a brawl, and they can't maintain a high dps. If you see a jump sniper and you're in a brawler build, close on it as fast as you can and you'll crush it. Every playstyle in this game has a counter to it. Jump sniping is no different.

For the record, whenever my unit brings jump snipe meta to group queue, we just end up brawling anyways. Summoners, Night Gyrs, Hunchies, and Novas all have great DPS and can indeed brawl with gauss/PPC.

Against an equally skilled team organised specifically to brawl? Not so effective. But in 90% of matches? PPC brawl can mash potatoes ezpz.

[meteorol]

Tarogato, on 26 February 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

PPC brawl can mash potatoes ezpz.

Anything can, really.