90 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

do ppcs even have recoil?

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 26 February 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

do ppcs even have recoil?

In real life, they would. In BT? Not sure.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 25 February 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

No the time to say that is never...

Aw shucks! Well then, I guess people will continue to eat my pop shots.

In the meantime, I'm not giving up on getting back the old and original delayed convergence or the closest approximation possible.

xe N on, on 25 February 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Why should jump sniping not exist? It's a legit combat tactic, the same as any other. There are already a lot of mechanics that punish jump sniping:

...
Jump sniping is something that comes at the very bottom of the list.

Cyrion, on 26 February 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

I've put in about 800 games in QP over the past couple of months. About 100 or so in FP. Can't remember a single game where a majority or even more than 1 or 2 people were jump sniping.

Lurms? All day every day baby.

Laser Vomit? Rave isn't dead in MWO.

Huge ballistic/SRM alphas with lots of deathball NASCAR nonsense? Heck, every day is Sunday round these parts and we love turning to the left.

Jump sniping? Oh, wow. There's like one Viper or Shadowcat out there trying to be cute. Yawn. Here I am moving back into cover and completely ignoring them.

What can I say? Poptart-induced PTSD is real.

Edited by Mystere, 26 February 2017 - 10:10 AM.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

But your anecdotal experience doesn't fit the top end of MWO

LRMs are worthless
Lasevomit isn't sustainable and can not be used effectively past 500M for the grand majority of chassis (ERML range nerf), with the exception of ERLL boats (which have a unique extreme range niche, where projectiles are unreliable)


That leaves Dakka (facetime=risk)
Brawling (SRMs, SPLs, ACs, Flamers)
Poke (Gauss, ERPPC)

Poke has the highest reward for the least risk, but isn't as overwhelming as it was in the HGN era (because LOL 1.5 damage SRMs).

If you can control a power position, that is, where a team cannot push your side without getting rekt, the Poke deck has a distinct advantage of being able to hit first, and hit harder.


Smaller sizes lend to brawling being more viable (less firepower, less likely to instagib)


But, what do I know. This is just my observations

Ahem!

Did you just skewer a guy for using anecdotes -- and by that I meant "You're nothing but a scrub, so why should anyone listen to you?" -- to claim that something is not in the top end and which you yourself "proved" by not being in your own top 3?

Tsk! Tsk!

Edited by Mystere, 26 February 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[MacClearly]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

In real life, they would. In BT? Not sure.

You were right about coil guns and recoil and there's some interesting articles on why (forget the name of applicable law) but since particles have mass I think the same law applies. On sarna it actually says ppc's are only energy weapon with recoil.

[MacClearly]

Mystere, on 26 February 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

Aw shucks! Well then, I guess people will continue to eat my pop shots. https://static.mwomercs.com/forums//public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.png

In the meantime, I'm not giving up on getting back the old and original delayed convergence or the closest approximation possible. https://static.mwomercs.com/forums//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png

No, feel free to go ahead and give up on that as well.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 26 February 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

No, feel free to go ahead and give up on that as well.

LordNothing, on 26 February 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

do ppcs even have recoil?

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

In real life, they would.

I wouldn't be too sure about that ... yet.

Don't ask me where (), but in another lifetime I've been in a lab where balls of plasma vaporized stuff and I am as sure as hell those balls did not have much mass on them.

But then they technically weren't PPCs ... yet.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 26 February 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Ahem!

Did you just skewer a guy for using anecdotes -- and by that I meant "You're nothing but a scrub, so why should anyone listen to you?" -- to claim that something is not in the top end and which you yourself "proved" by not being in your own top 3?

Tsk! Tsk!

Did you not read my post?

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Did you not read my post?

Oh I did. But your tone did not rub the right way.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

In real life, they would. In BT? Not sure.

its a little known fact but there was a weapons program in the 90s called project marauder (they had to be battletech geeks when they picked that name), a direct energy self containment plasma weapon. essentially, its a ppc. the project was quickly classified after it was revealed and supposedly development continued in secret. ppcs are real. makes me wonder if the skunkworks new fusion machine isn't a derivative technology. now we just need to stick them into a robot and use them to shoot other robots.

[Mystere]

LordNothing, on 26 February 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

its a little known fact but there was a weapons program in the 90s called project marauder (they had to be battletech geeks when they picked that name), a direct energy self containment plasma weapon. essentially, its a ppc. the project was quickly classified after it was revealed and supposedly development continued in secret. ppcs are real. makes me wonder if the skunkworks new fusion machine isn't a derivative technology. now we just need to stick them into a robot and use them to shoot other robots.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

There is a saying that "Physics is a *****."

Here's the problem... Today, the best jump sniping mechs in the game are Hunchback II-Cs, Night Gyrs, Blackjacks, and Summoners. I might be missing a few other mechs - yet when you look at these mechs they have one of two things in common.

1. Either high mounted torso weapons or...
2. High mounted arm weapons with no lower arm actuators.

Yet something is amiss with the physics... A Phoenix Hawk firing a PPC has its lower arm actuator and the upper arm actuator working in concert to absorb the recoil. A Hunchback II-C with high mounted ERPPCs has nothing similar. You could argue and say, it has a recoil chamber built into the ERPPC housing, yet it would not be as effective as the same recoil chamber, paired within an arm with a upper and lower arm actuator. I'd like to see these mechs with lower mounted weapons be better jump snipers over those with high-mounted weapons.

So here is my thought on how to address it. And what is my crazy idea idea to do this... heat of course. Its the great mechwarrior/battletech equalizer.

If you are like the Phoenix Hawk and firing ballistic weapons from your arms. There is no change and no penalties.

If you are like the Hunchback II-C, when you fire during your jump or coming down after your jump - your mech compensates for the recoil by venting an intense and short burst of super heated air. The heat coming from this is equivalent to the pin-point-damage (PPD) damage the ballistic/ppc does. Fire a gauss - generate 15 additional heat. Fire a PPC or ERPPC, generate 10 additional heat.

This turns jump sniping into an option for mechs with superior weapons placement. Not the primary option. It also brings in physics.

I'm sure there are other ideas to counter the current the jump sniping kings.

What are yours?

don't forget bore axis. Those super high mounts actually exert more effective recoil/spin than a mid point weapon would. Firing AC20s or Gauss in mid air, on an HBK IIC without a specially mitigating thruster to counter recoil, would almost certainly spill your gyro, and impart a nice backflip to your robot... followed shortly by the shattered remains being strewn across the countryside.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

don't forget bore axis. Those super high mounts actually exert more effective recoil/spin than a mid point weapon would. Firing AC20s or Gauss in mid air, on an HBK IIC without a specially mitigating thruster to counter recoil, would almost certainly spill your gyro, and impart a nice backflip to your robot... followed shortly by the shattered remains being strewn across the countryside.

Now that's a better example, because PPC recoil just does not sit very well with me.

But at least the OP did not give lasers as an example.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 26 February 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Now that's a better example, because PPC recoil just does not sit very well with me.

But at least the OP did not give lasers as an example.

well, PPCs are a mix of kinetic and thermal energy, thus, I would imagine there to be some recoil. (And in fact, in TT they are stated to be the only energy weapon with... at least until Plasma Rifles... which really aren't true energy weapons in the first place). Mind you, IDK if Lightning (which is literally what a PPC fires) has kinetic energy from the plasma channel created, or if the "explosiveness" is really a matter of the instant superheating of what is struck, and thus, exploding. I tend to feel it's probably more the latter, but not being a "Lightning Physics Scientist", that is just based off layman's understanding.

[Spheroid]

This is topic is so much nonsense it hurts the head.

Firstly I don't accept your premise that PPCs generate any significant recoil whatsoever. You know that there are miniaturized versions that are both man portable and fielded on battle armor? The text for those units fail mention the crippling recoil you seem to think exists.

Secondly why would a lower arm actuator imply inherent recoil dampening? The Phoenix Hawk was originally built for a large laser mount. They just randomly incorporated a massless recoil cancelation system into the base elbow?

Also how does having an elbow help recoil regardless of source? A wide weapon stance in mechs with traditional arms would impart a clockwise rotational force around the center of mass as viewed from above. Additionally it would rotate the shoulder ball joint backwards creating two points of mechanical stress.

Lastly who cares about recoil. The particles are discharged in a fraction of a second. The shot is true and on target after the trigger is pulled. I don't care about the position of the arm after the shot, I am already repositioning and charging jumpjets for the next pop-tart.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 February 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Spheroid, on 26 February 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

This is topic is so much nonsense it hurts the head.

Firstly I don't accept your premise that PPCs generate any significant recoil whatsoever. You know that there are miniaturized versions that are both man portable and fielded on battle armor? The text for those units fail mention the crippling recoil you seem to think exists.

Secondly why would a lower arm actuator imply inherent recoil dampening? The Phoenix Hawk was originally built for a large laser mount. They just randomly incorporated a massless recoil cancelation system into the base elbow?

Also how does having an elbow help recoil regardless of source? A wide weapon stance in mechs with traditional arms would impart a clockwise rotational force around the center of mass as viewed from above. Additionally it would rotate the shoulder ball joint backwards creating two points of mechanical stress.

Lastly who cares about recoil. The particles are discharged in a fraction of a second. The shot is true and on target after the trigger is pulled. I don't care about the position of the arm after the shot, I am already repositioning and charging jumpjets for the next pop-tart.

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.[3] Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Their game, their rules. Claiming IRL physics in this game is even more ludicrous than you claim the OP is, really. That said, actual physical projectile weapons with a super high bore axis? Would be a massive issue.

[Spheroid]

@Bishop: If we entertain the idea that massive recoil exists then it would simply gamed around. Where is the center of mass in a Grasshopper? A lower abdomen symmetrical setup would have zero net rotational force and very little top/bottom mech flipping force.

Why are we even entertaining the idea? This game engine is not built for center of mass calculations, mech backflips, etc. The poor fps would just further be worsened.

ERPPCs are the overwhelming meta right now. A simple velocity tweak would be far simpler than any physics based approach.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 February 2017 - 11:44 AM.

[Murphy7]

PPC recoil should exist, but is not likely to be a serious factor.

For a related concept, consider the ion engine. Accelerating heated ions in a direction will generate thrust, just not a lot of it because the ions do not have all that much mass.

This argument does nothing for pop-tarting autocannon or Gauss.

* * * * *

I am less interested in the game impacts of jump sniping, and more interested in a change of mechanics that make jump jets far more useful for mobility while not increasing the relative of power of these hyperaggressive whack-a-moles.

Edited by Murphy7, 26 February 2017 - 11:48 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Spheroid, on 26 February 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

@Bishop: If we entertain the idea that massive recoil exists then it would simply gamed around. Where is the center of mass in a Grasshopper? A lower abdomen symmetrical setup would have zero net rotational force and very little top/bottom mech flipping force.

Why are we even entertaining the idea? This game engine is not built for center of mass calculations, mech backflips, etc. The poor fps would just further be worsened.

ERPPCs are the overwhelming meta right now. A simple velocity tweak would be far simpler than any physics based approach.

not disagreeing there are simpler fixes. Actual genuine heat effects on the heat bar, like in TT would likely do a lot to mitigate the meta cheeze, too. That being said, from an immersion standpoint, I would love to see recoil... but because of PGI laziness (and in fairness, extreme lack of optimization native to cryengine), we know that we won't see rotational force, or anything else.

That said, just felt your reply to the OP was maybe a tad unwarranted in the antagonism. *shrugs* Blue Sky Mining is something to be encourage on forums, IMO, not discouraged.

[Mystere]

Spheroid, on 26 February 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

ERPPCs are the overwhelming meta right now. A simple velocity tweak would be far simpler than any physics based approach.

The problem with "simpler" is that MWO already reeks too much of MVP.