21 replies to this topic

[7VWIuV]

I understand how skillpoints will be reimbursed along with all the c-bills used to buy skill modules, but will mech chassis be reimbursed as well? I'm asking this because I bought a lot of variants specifically because of quirks. This gets particularly troublesome when we get to Hero variants. I've bought the Top Dog specifically because of exclusive agility quirks that make it a devil for brawling. There's no other use for it without those quirks because it's an awful hot mech and the only thing it can run cool on are small lasers. I haven't played on the Test Server but from a quick look at the skill tree I can tell that, unless it retains some of the original quirks, the agility boost will be cut to half. I will end up with a slow, useless for brawling mech and that is too hot for running medium and large lasers. I've bought it 1 month ago and it's already nerfed? I think this is really unfair, specially because I've put real money on it. If there's no chassis reimbursement I want to know how PGI will handle this kind of situation.

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 05:14 AM.

[Cygone]

Umm no, no reimbursements.

There is no situation to resolve, you didnt spend real money on the Mech you spent real money on the MC, then spent the MC on the Mech, PGI has not significantly changed your MC.

[Felicitatem Parco]

You should not have bought Mechs just for the quirks. I think a good many people have done this, but it's also common knowledge that quirks are subject to change as per game development.

[7VWIuV]

Cygone, on 25 February 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

Umm no, no reimbursements.

There is no situation to resolve, you didnt spend real money on the Mech you spent real money on the MC, then spent the MC on the Mech, PGI has not significantly changed your MC.

Exactly. I don't want real money back. I want the MC I spent back because this update will brick the Mech. I had no way of knowing it could happen before I bought it. And I doubt anyone will buy it after the exclusive quirks are removed, other than for aesthetics, because it will be useless.

[7VWIuV]

Prosperity Park, on 25 February 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

You should not have bought Mechs just for the quirks. I think a good many people have done this, but it's also common knowledge that quirks are subject to change as per game development.

I had no warnings before I bought the Mech that it could change on the next month. And this game is not in beta stage anymore where some unexpected feature may completely change game aspects without prior notice, so I think I deserve some compensation.

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 10:14 AM.

[MechaBattler]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

I had no warnings before I bought the Mech that it could change on the next month. And this game is not in beta stage anymore where some unexpected feature may completely change game aspects without prior notice, so I think I deserve some compensation.

This is an online pvp game, they have to change things for balance sake. Even League of Legends changes champions for the sake of balance. Why would you think it would stay the same?

[7VWIuV]

MechaBattler, on 25 February 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

This is an online pvp game, they have to change things for balance sake. Even League of Legends changes champions for the sake of balance. Why would you think it would stay the same?

That is fair, my friend. But if you read everything that I wrote you'll understand that said change won't balance this particular Mech. It will brick it.

Top Dog is a heavy brawler laser boat. It has 9 energy slots for it. It can't handle the heat for boating medium and large lasers and without the agility quirks it's too slow to make small lasers effective. After the update the only role viable to fit it for will be as a weak PPC sniper, something half the other Thunderbolt variants can do more effectively since they can also fit cooler secondary weapons. So what's the point of buying it? I feel robbed.

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Wintersdark]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

I had no warnings before I bought the Mech that it could change on the next month. And this game is not in beta stage anymore where some unexpected feature may completely change game aspects without prior notice, so I think I deserve some compensation.

Are you a young child, or brand new to online games? I ask, because there are ongoing balance changes in ALL actively developed multiplayer games. All of them. Unless this is your first online game, you know that. That is, and always has been, a fact of life in all online games.

What's more, it's strictly necessary.

You're not going to get a refund because of balance changes.

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

That is fair, my friend. But if you read everything that I wrote you'll understand that said change won't balance this particular Mech. It will brick it.

Top Dog is a heavy brawler laser boat. It has 9 energy slots for it. It can't handle the heat for boating medium and large lasers and without the agility quirks it's too slow to make small lasers effective. After the update the only role viable to fit it for will be as a weak PPC sniper, something half the other Thunderbolt variants can do more effectively since they can also fit cooler secondary weapons. So what's the point of buying it? I feel robbed.

Why do you assume it'll have less agility? Did you read the PTS post? What's the point in being all sad and dramatic until you know what'll actually happen with your particular mech?

[7VWIuV]

Wintersdark, on 25 February 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Are you a young child, or brand new to online games? I ask, because there are ongoing balance changes in ALL actively developed multiplayer games. All of them. Unless this is your first online game, you know that. That is, and always has been, a fact of life in all online games.

What's more, it's strictly necessary.

You're not going to get a refund because of balance changes.


Why do you assume it'll have less agility? Did you read the PTS post? What's the point in being all sad and dramatic until you know what'll actually happen with your particular mech?

Don't kid me, boy. I've been playing online competitive games since Counter Strike was still a mod, so please stop this bs talk. I have nothing against balancing. The point is, on a wide, generical mechanical change like this, it's not uncommon to have unpremeditated balancing issues. If you didn't get this, you either didn't read what I wrote or you have some cognitive issues. Assuming you don't, please follow me here:

Top Dog has a 60% acceleration and deceleration bonus quirk. Plus 15% more from skill points that makes a 75% bonus on top of the basic acceleration value. From the Mobility tree on the PTS page I can see the maximum I can get through the new skill system is 50%. That's 25% less acceleration. Top Dog also has a 45% bonus to turn speed that, along with skill points, goes to 50%. On the new system the maximum is 30%, close to half less the turn speed bonus. Torso speed gets a ridiculous 5% max bonus on the new system, the original was 30%. Now, can you explain to me how that is not less agile? But ok. Let's consider this is all fair, because Top Dog is OP (and it isn't, because it's a ******* hot mech) and PGI needs the nerf for balancing it. Then please tell me, what's the ******* point of buying it on this new system if I can have a much better brawling fit with the same skills on a non MC exclusive variant?

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[Bud Crue]

7VWluV,

Sorry man, but PGI changes thigns, and often dramatically, all the time. Not just when there is a "generical mechanical change" but whenever they feel like it and often in a seemingly arbitrary manner with little or no explanation. Even worse they consistently nerf mechs that are not OP by any objective standard and seem to take particular glee in hurting mechs at or near the bottom of the playability spectrum; and they often do this and then assert that such crap mechs are somehow performing above their target values. Over the summer Quickdraws were nerfed twice. Why? Jesters nerfed out of the blue. Don't even get folks started on what PGI did to ALL the Kodiaks, UACs and Gauss all in the name of bringing the Kodiak 3 down a few notches. No one got a refund when they ruined any of those things, nor will they.

From the terms of service:
2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings.

So no if PGI was going to be refunding c-bills or MC for the ruining of mechs they would be constantly doing it. But they are not going to do such a thing ever. The dartboard giveth and the dartboard taketh away. This is just another great "quirkening" and ya may as well get used to it.

[Andi Nagasia]

PGI has always said that Quirks are Subject to Change,
and that they should not be used as a defining factor when buying a mech,
in this case you knew Quirks on those mechs could change, and you still bought it,

[7VWIuV]

Bud Crue, on 25 February 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sorry man, but PGI changes thigns, and often dramatically, all the time. Not just when there is a "generical mechanical change" but whenever they feel like it and often in a seemingly arbitrary manner with little or no explanation. Even worse they consistently nerf mechs that are not OP by any objective standard and seem to take particular glee in hurting mechs at or near the bottom of the playability spectrum; and they often do this and then assert that such crap mechs are somehow performing above their target values. Over the summer Quickdraws were nerfed twice. Why? Jesters nerfed out of the blue. Don't even get folks started on what PGI did to ALL the Kodiaks, UACs and Gauss all in the name of bringing the Kodiak 3 down a few notches. No one got a refund when they ruined any of those things, nor will they.

The difference here is ppl are still using Quickdraws, Kodiacs, Jesters, UACs and Gauss. Why? Probably because they were indeed OP, so balancing was justified. But Top Dog is borderline usable as a brawling mech. There is absolutely no reason to nerf it. If it was OP we would see hordes of Top Dogs crawling over every match in the game. Do you see them? Me neither.

Quote

From the terms of service:
2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings.

So no if PGI was going to be refunding c-bills or MC for the ruining of mechs they would be constantly doing it. But they are not going to do such a thing ever. The dartboard giveth and the dartboard taketh away. This is just another great "quirkening" and ya may as well get used to it.

I'm aware of the game's ToS. It's about the same on every online game out there. It's justifiable unless they never update their game or if they want to go to court at every texture change because some nerd didn't liked the new color of his character. The fact that PGI has the last word on it doesn't mean there's no reason for me not to argue about a proposition I think it's unfair. Different from what you may believe, developers usually wants to know what players think about their stuff.

Also, nothing was "given" to me. I cherry picked this specific mech to buy with my MC because of all of it's attributes combined, including release date, and I expected a bit more use for it than a single month of gameplay. So no, I don't think it's fair for it to be taken away like this.

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 04:48 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

um @7VWIuV,
have you played the PTS?

because the ive checked several sources and the Top Dog doesnt seem to have lost its Quirks,
many IS mechs kept lots of their Quirks, so you dont have to worry about your Mechs Agility dissolving,

[7VWIuV]

Andi Nagasia, on 25 February 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

PGI has always said that Quirks are Subject to Change,
and that they should not be used as a defining factor when buying a mech,
in this case you knew Quirks on those mechs could change, and you still bought it,

No, I didn't. I haven't played this game for 2 years or so. Came back in January and decided give myself a nice present in the form of a heavy brawling hero mech. Such a waste.

[7VWIuV]

Andi Nagasia, on 25 February 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

um @7VWIuV,
have you played the PTS?

because the ive checked several sources and the Top Dog doesnt seem to have lost its Quirks,
many IS mechs kept lots of their Quirks, so you dont have to worry about your Mechs Agility dissolving,

Dude, if this is true I will feel much relieved. I opened this thread on the forum because the PTS is offline since I decided to check on this issue.

Edited by 7VWIuV, 25 February 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Dude, if this is true I will be relieved. I opened this thread on the forum because the PTS is offline since I decided to check on this issue.

ok no worries then,
we will hopefullly will get the PTS back some time early next week,
-
However,
the next Skill Tree PTS2 test will be removing all Mobility Quirks wail they test something,
they are Decuppling Mobility from Engine Rating, so all mobility Quirks will be removed,
and be added back after,

so dont worry about your Mobility not being there for this Next Test,
just relax and enjoy the Skill Tree PTS post your thoughts and remember nothing is set in stone,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 25 February 2017 - 05:03 PM.

[Wintersdark]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

Don't kid me, boy. I've been playing online competitive games since Counter Strike was still a mod, so please stop this bs talk. I have nothing against balancing. The point is, on a wide, generical mechanical change like this, it's not uncommon to have unpremeditated balancing issues. If you didn't get this, you either didn't read what I wrote or you have some cognitive issues. Assuming you don't, please follow me here:

Then you know that in every single online game there are constant balance changes. Very simple shooters like counterstrike perhaps don't have extremely substantial balance changes because there's not really much of anything to change other than weapon stats, but any more complicated game?

Modern games? League of Legends has seen Champions go from grossly overpowered to utter trash and vice versa. World of Warcraft sees classes rise and fall in strength all the time, either due to value changes in skills, or even whole skill tree replacements (What? New Talent trees? Nah, there's no similarity there!) I'll leave it at that, but you name the game, and it's had balance changes.

Quote

Top Dog has a 60% acceleration and deceleration bonus quirk. Plus 15% more from skill points that makes a 75% bonus on top of the basic acceleration value. From the Mobility tree on the PTS page I can see the maximum I can get through the new skill system is 50%. That's 25% less acceleration. Top Dog also has a 45% bonus to turn speed that, along with skill points, goes to 50%. On the new system the maximum is 30%, close to half less the turn speed bonus. Torso speed gets a ridiculous 5% max bonus on the new system, the original was 30%. Now, can you explain to me how that is not less agile? But ok. Let's consider this is all fair, because Top Dog is OP (and it isn't, because it's a ******* hot mech) and PGI needs the nerf for balancing it. Then please tell me, what's the ******* point of buying it on this new system if I can have a much better brawling fit with the same skills on a non MC exclusive variant?

In your haste to get all grouchy you've managed to still totally miss the point.

The values in the new skill system are irrelevant, as they're a constant between all mechs and essentially just replacing the agility pilot skills with have with the current skill tree. You can ignore them completely.


I said:

Wintersdark, on 25 February 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why do you assume it'll have less agility? Did you read the PTS post? What's the point in being all sad and dramatic until you know what'll actually happen with your particular mech?

You're being all dramatic, but you still haven't read the original post and understood what PGI is doing.

Here, I'll quote the relevant part for you, because I'm helpful that way and maybe you went all "TLDR" on the OP, and didn't catch on that you were clearly missing something when I said what I quoted above.

Alexander Garden, on 20 February 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Many ‘Mechs previously balanced around superior Mobility Quirks will instead see those Quirks integrated into the inherent Mobility attributes of the 'Mech. Those inherent Mobility attributes will then be evaluated and adjusted against similar 'Mechs within their tonnage bracket. For example, the Phoenix Hawk will be provided with higher baseline Mobility stats compared to the Blackjack.

See? If you take the time to pay attention instead of getting all mad about what you think is going to happen (before even bothering to test it and provide feedback based on the PUBLIC TEST SERVER which exists for that specific purpose) then you can avoid looking foolish.

[Wintersdark]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

No, I didn't. I haven't played this game for 2 years or so. Came back in January and decided give myself a nice present in the form of a heavy brawling hero mech. Such a waste.

Like I said, unless you've lived under a rock and never played an MMO more complicated that a simple shooter, you'd *KNOW* there will be balance changes that change how any given mech (or, depending on the game, champion, tank, ship, plane, hero, spaceship, car, battlesuit, hellokitty, pony, etc) performs. It *ALWAYS* happens, in every such game.

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 February 2017 - 06:35 PM.

[Bud Crue]

7VWIuV, on 25 February 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

The difference here is ppl are still using Quickdraws, Kodiacs, Jesters, UACs and Gauss. Why? Probably because they were indeed OP, so balancing was justified. But Top Dog is borderline usable as a brawling mech. There is absolutely no reason to nerf it. If it was OP we would see hordes of Top Dogs crawling over every match in the game. Do you see them? Me neither.

Umm...I see most of your points have been addressed so cool. But I must add Topdog is a Tier 2 arguably Tier 1 mech...nothing, I mean NOTHING wrong, underpowerd or nerfed about a Tunderbolt with 9 energy hardpoints and the best structure quirks in its class. Nothing. Enjoy it.

Edit: Also it appears that even under the proposed near universal nerfs of the PTS the TD is not being touched at all.
http://static.mwomer...TS_ISQuirks.pdf

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 February 2017 - 07:24 PM.

[7VWIuV]

@Wintersdark
Andi Nagasia already addressed my concerns, so I'm going to avoid your trash talk if you don't mind.

@Bud Crue
Try fitting anything besides small lasers on a Top Dog and run cool with it, then we may discuss how removing agility quirks wouldn't impact the way it performs.