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Rotary Autocannons..possibly Our New Balance Headache, This Summer?


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#21 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:26 PM

View PostTarogato, on 27 February 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:


Then equip a UAC/5 instead. It even costs one ton less, and if you're having a lucky day, you'll get a lot more DPS out of it. But that seems backward to me.

For CQC, why wouldn't you want to equip the weapon that has the gauranteed DPS sans RNG, like my version of the RAC/5 adapted from MWLL? Who cares about the wind up time, you're in close quarters, you're going to be firing it constantly, as much as it will let you. What this RAC/5 would *not* be good at is pokey play and snapshotting, which is what you do at mid-to-long range.

except every gap, you have to spool up again. So unless you are literally knee deep the whole time, you are going to be having a ton of opportunities you an't use it on.

#22 Carl Vickers

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:28 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 27 February 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

except every gap, you have to spool up again. So unless you are literally knee deep the whole time, you are going to be having a ton of opportunities you an't use it on.


It would turn the Rac into more of a peek/poke type weapon than a brawl weapon, I personally would say make it a 1 second spool up, maybe 1.5 seconds to bring it inline with the Gauss. Can still be used in a brawl but not as effective.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 27 February 2017 - 08:29 PM.


#23 The6thMessenger

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:34 PM

I'd be contented with just a really long-range MG with better damage.

#24 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:36 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 February 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I'd be contented with just a really long-range MG with better damage.

Exactly

#25 Tarogato

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 08:49 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 27 February 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

except every gap, you have to spool up again. So unless you are literally knee deep the whole time, you are going to be having a ton of opportunities you an't use it on.


I feel you you don't understand the mechanic. Have you ever used RAC's in MWLL? You can just keep the weapon spooled up all the time without firing it - just ride it near the line, and when something shows up that you want to shoot, you push it over the line. If you're in a situation where you expect a mech to be around a corner, you can already have it spinning.

The reason I want to see a spinning mechanic is because it would be unique in MWO, and fun and rewarding to use.

#26 The6thMessenger

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 09:53 PM

View PostPromessa, on 27 February 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Okay, let me get firecontrol ready so I can always be on that line without any input.... Yeah, I'm sorry but that's a pointless mechanic.


Yeah, i agree. The spinning up is a nice touch, but unless its mechanic is worked by something that can't be circumvented by macros, it shouldn't fly.

#27 MechaBattler

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:12 PM

The spin up time is there to increase the difficulty in it's use. The heat bar should really act more like a jam bar. The higher it goes, the higher jam chance. Reducing the damage per individual shot gives standard and UACs better pin point damage potential, keeping them relevant.

#28 Y E O N N E

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:57 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 February 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:


Yeah, i agree. The spinning up is a nice touch, but unless its mechanic is worked by something that can't be circumvented by macros, it shouldn't fly.


You can circumvent almost anything with macros. But, hey, if you would rather the computer play the game for you, that's your call.

#29 LordNothing

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:05 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 27 February 2017 - 11:57 PM, said:


You can circumvent almost anything with macros. But, hey, if you would rather the computer play the game for you, that's your call.



any mechanic that can be bypassed by a simple macro is a bad mechanic. ive been able to bypass gauss mechanic with multiple guns and an anoying constant charge cycle, but its grossly impractical. its better to fire your gauss in pairs rater than alternately charging them so you can fire snap shots.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 February 2017 - 12:07 AM.


#30 Y E O N N E

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:24 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 28 February 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:



any mechanic that can be bypassed by a simple macro is a bad mechanic. ive been able to bypass gauss mechanic with multiple guns and an anoying constant charge cycle, but its grossly impractical. its better to fire your gauss in pairs rater than alternately charging them so you can fire snap shots.


Calling bull.

Using your logic, there are pretty much zero game mechanics that aren't "bad." You can even macro your movement, if you are so inclined. However, some of us take enjoyment out of actually playing the game manually because, you know, that's kind of the point. I care about my score, but not so much that I'm going to basically program myself out of the game by orchestrating a whole bunch of virtual crutches, aids, and workarounds. I can manage my Gauss rifles and such manually quite well, thank you very much. Anybody who thinks the mechanic is complicated or frustrating and doesn't have a medical condition to back it up is simply inept.

I swear to Hades, everybody on these forums has an aversion to any form of fire mode that doesn't result in an instant blast of damage even though the variations like charge, spin-up, and volley are age-old classics that have proliferated throughout video-games since forever. Point-and-click adventure games indeed.

#31 kapusta11

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:26 AM

RACs will most likely suck. RAC5 takes up 6 slots and weight 10 tons, unless you can somewhat safely fire 4 shots before jamming it will be worse than cUAC10.

Edited by kapusta11, 28 February 2017 - 04:13 AM.


#32 PFC Carsten

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:30 AM

No to CoF when a normal recoil would be more intuitive. Let the hose of fire wander, giving good players the ability to counter it to some degree with adjusting (mouse) movement, making the weapons more skill based.

Also do away with the explosions in your face, when hit by an autocannon anywhere on the 'mech's torsi. Screenshake ok, but no vision impairment, unless it is really a cockpit hit. That's what bothers me the most since it is so unrealistic - even inside a universe with FTL travel, giant walking machines which are in every way inferior to tanks only not in lore and whatnot.

#33 LordNothing

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:36 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 28 February 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:


Calling bull.

Using your logic, there are pretty much zero game mechanics that aren't "bad." You can even macro your movement, if you are so inclined. However, some of us take enjoyment out of actually playing the game manually because, you know, that's kind of the point. I care about my score, but not so much that I'm going to basically program myself out of the game by orchestrating a whole bunch of virtual crutches, aids, and workarounds. I can manage my Gauss rifles and such manually quite well, thank you very much. Anybody who thinks the mechanic is complicated or frustrating and doesn't have a medical condition to back it up is simply inept.

I swear to Hades, everybody on these forums has an aversion to any form of fire mode that doesn't result in an instant blast of damage even though the variations like charge, spin-up, and volley are age-old classics that have proliferated throughout video-games since forever. Point-and-click adventure games indeed.


you must have gotten so offended you didnt get to the part on the second line that said "grossly impractical". my experimentation was purely academic and not intended for use in game. macros are more harmful than helpful. the only macro i use is the one that lets me cycle vision modes with one button instead of 2, to save space on my throttle (20 buttons is not enough). games are the only place where these 'classic' mechanics are acceptable. but you have to admit that pgi has done some terrible mechanics, uac for example, is that the best they could do? gauss charge is tolerable and hard to break with macro (i dont think a non-programmer could come up with that kind of macro). i could deal with spinup even though it doesn't make any sense why a gatling gun in the 3050s would desync the belt from the rotor (thats probibly why the uac jams more than a certain french ww1 machine gun).

you probibly arent going to read in this far but i might as well tell how. in my particular case i actually did it with an arduino, my macro was actually written in c++ with access to microsecond precise timings. this doesn't mean much because the game likely polls the keyboard only 60 times a second or with the frame rate/physics frame or whatever interval the game uses for input. so timings less than 1/60 are irrelevant. it took a lot of trial and error to find the timing info needed to pull it off.

it essentially cycled the gauss with a square wave a little longer than the max charge hold duration. this would cause the weapon to charge, hold, and time out, then after a short reset interval do it again. with a big red fire button on one of the gpios, i could interrupt that wave while it is high and force it to go low for one cooldown cycle. i pretty much did a logical and operation with the wave form and the inverted button state (down = 0, up = 1). when this value changed id pass it as a key stroke with the usb hid class device. this only results in a fire if the gun was charged. to make it so you can always fire you just alternate 2 wave forms mapped to different number keys, sticking the gauss rifles in the corresponding groups. one gun is always hot, and the other one is charging. you can always instantly fire one of the gauss rifles

any sane person would manage the charging themselves and fire both gauss at once. because face time is expensive. hell half the macros are rule of cool macros and macros for people with ocds that have to have their ac2s fire at precisely timed intervals. the end result is you need more face time and get dead faster. it does look totally awesome though.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 February 2017 - 01:25 AM.


#34 Y E O N N E

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:42 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 28 February 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:


you must have gotten so offended you didnt get to the part on the second line that said "grossly impractical".


I saw it alright, but you must be incapable of reading comprehension because that line doesn't cancel out what you said above it about "simple macros," which is what I was really replying to and it should have been obvious because that's the topic I lead with.

#35 SuomiWarder

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:46 AM

RACs can work like lasers with the same hit reg. The laser is an extended period of damage in intervals. The RAC would work the same but with a higher damage per interval. Simple implementation using the coding already in the game.

#36 Anjian

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 01:00 AM

Longer ranged "machine guns" is probably the easiest, and maybe the most cost effective and proven way to implement RACs in this game, I would agree with. I would also agree with the spin mechanic.

For the weapon I would be concerned about hit registration issues since when you have a lot of tiny hits, that means quite a bit of server load and an intense packet stream, which risks some hit reg losses. The particle effects may also cause some graphical slowdown, so there is going to be some work that needed to be down with regards to graphics and network optimization.

Examples of rotary dakka from other games, just to give you ideas.

MW:LL



WWR. This one exhibits CoF characteristics. The closer you are, the higher the damage. The CoF can be narrowed or widened depending on buff or nerf, and that is up to the developers to determine the balance.


Edited by Anjian, 28 February 2017 - 01:01 AM.


#37 ice trey

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 01:03 AM

As far as I'm concerned

RNG is not evil. It can be and often is a good balancing tool.

It doesn't mean that it strips skill out of the game. There is such a thing as being able to balance risk versus reward, and it does qualify as being a skill.

The majority of the problems that this game faces stem from the mentality that RNG is always a bad thing.

#38 LordNothing

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 01:42 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 28 February 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:


I saw it alright, but you must be incapable of reading comprehension because that line doesn't cancel out what you said above it about "simple macros," which is what I was really replying to and it should have been obvious because that's the topic I lead with.


"any mechanic that can be bypassed by a simple macro is a bad mechanic."

this is still true in my opinion. "simple macro" in no way defines my gauss cycler mechanic. its just an extreme example of a quasi-defeatable (with some extreme caveats) mechanic that i used as an example. if pgi is going to continue to allow macros, they shouldn't be making mechanics that can be defeated by them. id even argue that none of the mechanics currently in the game are easily defeatable, as would spinup (really charge with a different sound effect).

Edited by LordNothing, 28 February 2017 - 01:43 AM.


#39 Weeny Machine

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:27 AM

View PostCarl Vickers, on 27 February 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:


It would turn the Rac into more of a peek/poke type weapon than a brawl weapon, I personally would say make it a 1 second spool up, maybe 1.5 seconds to bring it inline with the Gauss. Can still be used in a brawl but not as effective.


I think the game needs less and not more incentives for "poking" or peek-a-booing. Every match is the same: assaults and heavies hide and a snipefest commences

#40 Willard Phule

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 05:37 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 February 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I'd be contented with just a really long-range MG with better damage.


We should get something to that effect with the "new tech," and if PGI actually manages to bring it into the game. AP Gauss, man. It's brutal.





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