30 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Thought experiment here, Quicksilver.

If every 'Mech in the game has its one, singular, extremely narrow niche role, as the main push behind this engine thing seems to be, as well as the Ultracomp backlash against ideas such as FutureTech mobility systems or improved weapons...how does the game sustain itself in the longer term?

If any given 'Mech that releases is only capable of a single, hyper-narrow role, typically even just one particular build that is the only build that 'Mech can properly run, then only a small, select portion of the MWO playerbase who're interested in that build will bother obtaining the 'Mech. Beyond PokeMech collectors, at least. Yes, battlefield diversity increase, but player retention decreases as everyone in the game has to wait upwards of a year for anything of any remote interest to them. Everybody in the game gets the Light Pilot Treatment because 'Mechs are treated more like absolutely fixed MOBA heroes than they are 'Mechs, so nobody gets anything they particularly like more'n once in a blue moon.

Why is this a desirable end state for the game?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 28 February 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

If every 'Mech in the game has its one, singular, extremely narrow niche role, as the main push behind this engine thing seems to be, as well as the Ultracomp backlash against ideas such as FutureTech mobility systems or improved weapons...how does the game sustain itself in the longer term?

By adding mechs every month like it has for the past 4 years.......

How does a game like Overwatch hope to sustain itself not adding a new hero every month, and don't say by new purchases of the base game because that isn't sustainable (and is the reason things like Guild Wars created new campaigns).

1453 R, on 28 February 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Everybody in the game gets the Light Pilot Treatment because 'Mechs are treated more like absolutely fixed MOBA heroes than they are 'Mechs, so nobody gets anything they particularly like more'n once in a blue moon.

Wait, so what is a problem with making mechs emulate one of the most successful genres around exactly? Not that I'm saying it should be wholly fixed like that, you should have some degree of variation/customization just like you do in those games, but it shouldn't be such that you can turn a Griffin into an SRM bomber which is distinctly not a Griffin.





Given all of that, PGI is not going to suddenly add that much restriction because it would be a lot of work and probably backlash from people like you. It is sadly something I will have to wait for until MWO2.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 February 2017 - 12:39 PM.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

By adding mechs every month like it has for the past 4 years.......

How does a game like Overwatch hope to sustain itself not adding a new hero every month, and don't say by new purchases of the base game because that isn't sustainable (and is the reason things like Guild Wars created new campaigns).

Microtransaction gambling crates, a'la Supply Caches. Surprised MWO doesn't allow players to purchase those, but then again Piranha has no clue how a microtransaction system works. Which is why 'Mech sales are tied to the game's financial longevity and not a reasonable cash shop.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Wait, so what is a problem with making mechs emulate one of the most successful genres around exactly? Not that I'm saying it should be wholly fixed like that, you should have some degree of variation/customization just like you do in those games, but it shouldn't be such that you can turn a Griffin into an SRM bomber which is distinctly not a Griffin.

MOBAs are literal poison and the worst thing to happen to gaming since gaming. While I'm well aware that such is a personal opinion and not admissible in court, I cannot really help but look at any attempt by any game of any genre from any publisher in any setting at any time for any reason to move closer to the MOBA sphere as being a poor decision.

And what's wrong with turning a Griffin into a close-quarters 'Mech? The Inner Sphere does not have an SRM-centric medium 'Mech. Out of 14 base chassis, with 4.5 variants per base - 63 total 'Mechs, 63 total 'heroes' for your 'Mech MOBA - not a single one of them is an SRM-focused machine. LRMs everywhere! But SRMs? Only incidentally, in onesies and twosies. Not one single entry in 63 options for an SRM-focused, close-range fist punching brawler in the Sphere medium category.

The closest I can find is...the GRF-2N. A Griffin, with two SRM-6 racks.

So does this mean the Sphere should just not have an SRM-focused medium 'Mech?

If they should have one, by being able to turn other missile-centric designs into SRM-centric designs...then why is the freedom to solve that problem okay, but the freedom to solve other problems a vile sin committed against the very lifeblood of the franchise?

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

How does a game like Overwatch hope to sustain itself not adding a new hero every month, and don't say by new purchases of the base game because that isn't sustainable (and is the reason things like Guild Wars created new campaigns).

Overwatch adds one hero every 4 months or so. Ana was released in July, Sombra was released in November, and Doomfist (maybe) will be released in March. Overwatch is successful because it caters to casuals. It has anything from ladder, to quickplay, to random mode and even co-op vs. AI. Heck there is not even loss/death related stats!

Edited by El Bandito, 28 February 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 28 February 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Overwatch is successful because it caters to casuals.

Wait what? If Overwatch caters to casuals then what the hell does MWO do?

1453 R, on 28 February 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

Microtransaction gambling crates, a'la Supply Caches. Surprised MWO doesn't allow players to purchase those, but then again Piranha has no clue how a microtransaction system works. Which is why 'Mech sales are tied to the game's financial longevity and not a reasonable cash shop.

Not really disagreeing here, but the point should still to be releasing content whether it be mechs/weapons/equipment/maps or all of the above at a regular interval. One of the problems however is that the decision making process on what mechs to add has been less "what is missing from the game" and more "what mech will sell the most".

1453 R, on 28 February 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

MOBAs are literal poison and the worst thing to happen to gaming since gaming.

Yeah, totally not biased at all in your opinion then, not one bit.

1453 R, on 28 February 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

And what's wrong with turning a Griffin into a close-quarters 'Mech? The Inner Sphere does not have an SRM-centric medium 'Mech.

IF that were the case (Kintaro can't jump, but it is more short range oriented than the Griffin and can even hold more SRMs), then sure, having a mech converted to a different role to avoid redundancy is fine. I'm perfectly ok with that and fully understand it would be necessary, but that doesn't mean that mech should be flexible to support that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 February 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

Wait what? If Overwatch caters to casuals then what the hell does MWO do?

MWO gates players with only 4 initial mechbays, which lets them get slaughtered in CW to earn some for free. And thanks to the current MM, skill disparity in game is pretty bad in matches. And depending on the new skill tree system, the difference between newbie and veterans will be even bigger than before. And there is no Coop .vs AI to ease into the game, or to have a stress free environment to earn some C-Bills.

MWO itself has niche appeal, and also zero sex appeal.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 February 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

Wait what? If Overwatch caters to casuals then what the hell does MWO do?

It's really quite simple.

PGI has been banking on people's nostalgia to sell more mechs. The Urbanmech is a good example. It'll never be an ULTRA-META-COMP-TIER KDK-3, but then again it was just a cool, and goofy mech that people loved in spite of the fact that it had very limited capabilities.

Problem is, the nostalgia train is quickly running dry. For two reasons.

One. HBS and their Battletech game. You can bet real money that people will flock to that in droves given the state of CW/FW, and the blandness that is the rest of MWO.

Two. People more and more seem to be following the ULTRA-META-COMP-TIER mindset in that if a mech doesn't meet these ludicrously high standards, as demonstrated by the KDK, then a mech is decried as worthless trash.

And therein lies yet another problem. More and more, the only ULTRA-META-COMP-TIER mechs we seem to be able to get these days are Clan mechs. The IS is severely lacking in viable mechs to run, and is left with mechs that rely more on people's nostalgia to get them to buy.

The remaining Unseen/Reseen/Classic mechs such as the Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, Crusader for example. These are going to tickle the nostalgia players ten shades of pink, but these mechs will in no way attract the ULTRA-META-COMP-TIER level players because of any of a billion reasons.

They'll only really be attractive to the nostalgia players, and/or the Pokemech collectors who just HAVE to have them all, but unless the game is given a "Stock Only" mode outside of private matches, they won't be all that useful in the game itself which relies on finding that one optimal build for that chassis or variant. And even then the question of just how effective that build will be will further depress that mechs usefullness.

And going back to my comment about HBS and people abandoning MWO, it's obvious that PGI is not catering to the casual players here in MWO, not with all these absurd and convoluted "solutions" they keep coming up with to problems that should be a lot easier to fix.

The casuals will probably find HBS' game a lot easier to work with since they'll be able to control literally everything. Not having to worry about people being AFK, or YOLO'ing off like bloody idiots... I could go on for hours here.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 28 February 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

MWO gates players with only 4 initial mechbays, which lets them get slaughtered in CW to earn some for free. And thanks to the current MM, skill disparity in game is pretty bad in matches. And depending on the new skill tree system, the difference between newbie and veterans will be even bigger than before. And there is no Coop .vs AI to ease into the game, or to have a stress free environment to earn some C-Bills.

I was attributing the word casual to mean the typical paradigm of casual vs comp/tryhards which in this case MWO doesn't cater to either, it hates both equally I guess.

Even still Overwatch treats both better and makes more balance changes based on comp input than this game does.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

I was attributing the word casual to mean the typical paradigm of casual vs comp/tryhards which in this case MWO doesn't cater to either, it hates both equally I guess.

Even still Overwatch treats both better and makes more balance changes based on comp input than this game does.

I couldn't agree more with you on this, I am often left wondering whom the "High level comp players" are that Russ listens too... I don't trust NGNG, they seem to have their own agenda that at time seems at odds with MWO...

Still with Blizzard, I also know that they keep a close eye on what is being done at all levels of play, and tend to make adjustments that are well thought out and often subtle, that will effect comp players more than mid rank and low end players.

PGI by contrast is rather ham-handed with their balance attempts, not to mention those attempts are often behind the current trends by upwards of months...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 28 February 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more with you on this, I am often left wondering whom the "High level comp players" are that Russ listens too... I don't trust NGNG, they seem to have their own agenda that at time seems at odds with MWO...

The only time that I know they did, was when they did the first pass of quirks using tiers to determine amount of quirks. Problem was they didn't understand all quirks are not equal, and I believe they nerfed poptarts hard around that same time so things got all messed up as a result. I think they wanted to hedge the mess of balance afterward on comp input rather than their own lack of understanding when they made the implementation.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

The only time that I know they did, was when they did the first pass of quirks using tiers to determine amount of quirks. Problem was they didn't understand all quirks are not equal, and I believe they nerfed poptarts hard around that same time so things got all messed up as a result. I think they wanted to hedge the mess of balance afterward on comp input rather than their own lack of understanding when they made the implementation.

I got started after the Poptart era, so I missed that drama... I know that I sold the bulk of my Clan Stable shortly before the quriking was annouced and went IS, in that event some of my bread and butter "Average" mechs became like gods of war... I actually felt bad using them... AC/5 Dragon buzz saw....

Even post then, it still feels too random in what they do...