358 replies to this topic

[Tiantara]

- After changes in skill tree now, more than before, actual make possible to take skill not "from up to down" but also "from down to up" to allow player check skills which lay above purchased node. That allow player take more optimized skill set especially for scouting info-tech mech and fast-runner from light and medium. Also that allow pilot make better some of models and ignore improvements in mech which already good by armor or agility.

Anyway... after changing skill tree I see more movement inertness. So after pressing button to full stop - medium or light mech still continue to move further. That can affect playstyle and also can be useful for snipers who know length of brake way.
Without taken skills or with half of them - it's bigger than before. Even for mech who have no old basic skill opened. Like fast medium (viper) go further about 3 time of his size forward before stops... Feels like I have soap road under my feet.

[Weeny Machine]

Some feedback from testing:

Negative:
1. Bias towards overperformers
Mechs who do already good or have a certain strength gain even more through the PTS in some regards because certain quirks are % based.

Examples: Jump Jet tree or armour&structure buffs

2. Lights screwed as usually
No. 2 is a result of no 1. Lights are screwed again because of % based quirks. The only exception is speed but thanks to agility quirks the heavies and assaults will turn relatively fast anyway. So...

Possible solution: assign a minimum value for certain % based quirks

3. Clans vs IS
Currently I see no way how IS mechs should be able to compete with clan mechs when IS got there quirks reduced and at the same time get the skill tree as compensation (which isn't entirely ture: the Grid Iron is totally worthless now because the Gauss quirk is too low). However, the clan mechs get the same quirks through skill points despite having no or hardly any quirks to begin with. That's a recipe for a disaster...or should we call it Kodigeddon



Positive:
I think you are on the right track. However, it needs some tweaking

Edited by Bush Hopper, 03 March 2017 - 06:31 AM.

[Amro One]

No need for testing, as the typical minion doesn't get it.
Just put it on the live server and you'll all see PGI vision of for ever making MWO Great.

[UrbanTarget]

Bush Hopper, on 03 March 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Some feedback from testing:

Negative:
1. Bias towards overperformers
Mechs who do already good or have a certain strength gain even more through the PTS in some regards because certain quirks are % based.

Examples: Jump Jet tree or armour&structure buffs

2. Lights screwed as usually
No. 2 is a result of no 1. Lights are screwed again because of % based quirks. The only exception is speed but thanks to agility quirks the heavies and assaults will turn relatively fast anyway. So...

Possible solution: assign a minimum value for certain % based quirks

3. Clans vs IS
Currently I see no way how IS mechs should be able to compete with clan mechs when IS got there quirks reduced and at the same time get the skill tree as compensation (which isn't entirely ture: the Grid Iron is totally worthless now because the Gauss quirk is too low). However, the clan mechs get the same quirks through skill points despite having no or hardly any quirks to begin with. That's a recipe for a disaster...or should we call it Kodigeddon



Positive:
I think you are on the right track. However, it needs some tweaking

It will be really hard to get a full view of the impact such a change will make in the long run through a PTS. What the PTS *does* provide is an opportunity to prove a concept, test a mechanic in the wild, and get feedback from players that may do things differently than the in-house testers.

Anyone who believes that all issues can be/will be ironed out in the PTS are mental. More than anything it is a vehicle to ensure the bulk of the work is done so that any post-deployment wore is mostly this fine tuning. The reality will be somewhere in the middle, where their ability to tweak will be more effective because of the PTS, but there will be some hangup that will require hotfixing. That in and of itself is not a knock on PGI, it happens to bigger companies than them and things hit you from angles you can anticipate so in that regard be patient.

IS will retain *some* buffs and lose others, Clans have few buffs to lose so yeah, there will need to be some re-balancing there.

The thing about the skill trees is, if you play it right, you have a better chance at surprising your enemy. Right now, you can determine, as soon as you see the build, how best to counter this mech. With the skill trees, sure you see their build, but you have to ask yourself then, how did they augment the mech? is it cooler? Rangy-er? more nimble? more durable? You might choose your target based on high-alpha threat, not realizing the he's harder to kill now and the guy next to him is a DPS beast that's cutting through your armor methodically as you focus elsewhere.

Granted, if the trees don't make enough of a difference in perf, that example goes *poof*, but I think that's part of the idea...

[Arkhangel]

@Urban: yeah, problem is a lot of people on here are mainly venting that they can't do stuff they do CURRENTLY anymore with the new system, at least until they adapt to it. fact is though, every MMO changes over time. You need to change with it. whining about it won't do a thing.

[Ninjah]

I'm not going to give my feedback on the PTS because I'm too salty with the live client to care about the change that will de-balance everything and bring a bunch of new bugs that will take months to fix. Instead I'm going to give some feedback on the live client.

1. DISMISS button on the news feed should be replaced by a huge red CLOSE [X] sign on the top right where it naturally belongs. Some people don't speak English very well and can't get past it (Dismiss? What that word? o0).

2. There should be an UI/Systems overview tutorial (ECM, NARC, targeting computers, command console, consumables) that kicks off as soon as the client is launched for the first time and can't be closed until the user watches it all. It covers a lot so it should be made interesting (like Bitching Betty talking the pilot through the systems, throw in some interesting videos). Similar tutorial is needed for Faction Play basics (opening gates, shooting turrets, shooting gens and Omega).

3. Some users complain that the Academy tutorials are bugged - missing in-game UI, can't find alpha button with their keyboard/language combo (could be replaced by "fire all your weapons at once")

4. Too much useless technical info in the MechLab, should be replaced with weapon/systems descriptions with a bit of lore. I'm refering to tooltips, kill those graphs and use the space for something meaningful. Yeah, it's great to know that my LPL range is somewhere between 500-750 meters, dunno exactly what it is without dropping in a match or testing grouds lol. Wait? I have a range module, does the graph update? Can't tell, it looks the same as before... Wierd... Very confused, stupid UI! Also where is my DPS stat?? How fast will my mech go with the speed tweak/mobility node? No idea... Stupid UI again!

5. Fix the bug where the slots on a mech start to displace on their own after adding/removing lots of stuff. I'm talking about building a mech for 15 minutes, removing engines, adding/removing weapons. It's sad how bad it looks. Also another bug is that you can't move a weapon from one component to another, for example I can't move a medium pulse from left arm with energy hardpoint to the right arm which also has a free energy hardpoint. It works for heatsinks and stuff but it doesn't for weapons. Third bug I just remembered happens when you try to add something to the mech but you don't have enough cbills. After you click Continue it will add 2-3 same components if there is room instead of just one. Fourth thing - allow users to add everything on a mech even with 0 cbills but disable Save. It doesn't work well now, sometimes it gets bugged on Endo, Artemis, DHSs. Sometimes I just want to take a quick look at the build I wanna buy but this forces me to go to Smurfy.

6. Fix the bug where an user appears online but he/she's actually OFFLINE. I can't tell you how many times I typed a message to someone just to get the "User is currently offline." message <o> And why the heck aren't the messages stored and delivered when the user goes online? Is that so hard? Takes too much memory?

7. Add an option for the Selected mech to auto-rotate on the Home Screen. It would make an awesome screensaver

8. Maps. Finish what you started. No destructable objects on all maps yet. Horrible hitboxes on object on some maps, Manifold is the most urgent to fix, then Vitric, Emerald Taiga. Depth of Field on Terra Therma is very wierd, should be removed, it's annoying as hell and badly done. Fix the Domination Circle on Alpine, add some cover on that plain, put some rocks there or something and also give it snowstorms and day/night cycle. Buildings in River City are too dense, big mechs have trouble navigating, even my team gets into a *********** often there. Too many small vertical obstacles there too. Frozen - canyon that runs thru the middle should be narrower with somewhat taller walls to reduce sniping and lurming and kill that frozen fish, it looks ******** for a serious game. Consider saturating the map color palette, everything looks pale AF. Make at least 1 brand new map and it's Faction Play (Siege) counterpart. Fix flickering of canyon walls in the distance on Hellebore Springs. Domination antenna asset looks broken, also what kind of geometry is in there, that thing shouldn't have more than 3000-5000 polys maximum. Mipmapping also doesn't work very well, textures update only when I get really close on medium details so most of the time game looks like horrible (needs balancing of distance). What do you think happens when you use Advanced Zoom on medium details and look at something 1500m away? A normal mech sitting in a blur. That's what happens.

9. Domination timers and conquest values need to be updated. Games tend to end too fast, both in QP and FP, especially Domination in FP. Most of the games are done in like 2 minutes. Combine that with 10-15 minutes wait times, loading screens, etc. = fail.

10. Too much QP modes in FP. More Siege, less QP modes please. Makes the units rush to complete objectives just to get to the maps they wanna play which results in a hugeeee number of 2 minute stomps that honestly suck.

11. Fix the dropships, they float around stuck in the sky all the time. Also the dropship bug is still there. Walls in FP are horribly placed, mark the exists and clean up the dropzone of debris. I hate being dropped on a cluster of rocks or into a bunch of small obstacles. Make the walls take some damage like the pillars in Crimson.

12. Give a boost to Dragons, Highlanders, Firestarters, Dires, King Crabs, Awesomes, Warhawks and other neglected mechs, we want people to play them for the sake of variety, I'm tired of killing Warhammers, Ebons, Hellbringers and the rest of meta.

13. XP levels gained for a loss in QP are way too low, a newbie that loses a game will get like 200-500XP and maybe 1000-1500XP for a win. Dunno the exact value for mastering the mech but I estimate it's around 50000XP. With a W/L ration of 1 it'll take around 80-90 games to master a mech which is depressing.

14. Events. They suck lately to be honest. Make a Unit event finally, it's been what, 2 years since the last one. Just some cool swag for rewards (colors, cockpit items, warhorns, that custom unit dog tag thing was an awesome idea). It'll bring people back together for fun and glory.

If I think of anything else I'll add but the point is, there is too much to fix right now and you're going way ahead of yourselves with new features while the overall game is getting more and more neglected. Think about it, it's for your own good.

[TheCallandor]

The skill tree system still if very confusing, as stated by many others posting here. There should be no reason to have to purchase useless nodes for mechs that do not need them. Also, this new system really screws with the whole omi pod system for clans and for furture inner sphere omi mechs as you will/have to re-spec every time you change out a pod, which negates the main purpose of having an omi mechs.

[Perilthecat]

Why is this PTS still up? It's verifiably full of data entry errors and should have been pulled down so we aren't wasting time getting salty over "changes" that were not intentional. Or did I miss the memo?

Also, good gawd, I sincerely don't want to hurt anyone's feelings/pride but the whole concept and layout is confusing and awful. It looks like a mess and isn't remotely easy to understand what's happening. An elegant skill "tree" concept it is not.

Very disappointing.

[Carminus]

Hey PGI google "Witcher 3 Skill Tree".

This is clean:

(Witcher 3)



Your "Old" system




This is not:



You current "old" System was cleaner.

Edited by Carminus, 03 March 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[Holy Jackson]

Arkhangel, on 03 March 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

@Urban: yeah, problem is a lot of people on here are mainly venting that they can't do stuff they do CURRENTLY anymore with the new system, at least until they adapt to it. fact is though, every MMO changes over time. You need to change with it. whining about it won't do a thing.

As an IS pilot, I usually don't play clan. I do however own a trio of ebon jaguars that I use for mostly clan weapon testing and general quick play goofing off. It helps me understand clan tech and weaknesses, and lets me see how it changes when PGI does something like change the engine heatsink performance in a patch.

Those things are very powerful mechs. There's a reason they don't have quirks. They pull 600 damage with derp builds.

On the test servers, they are absolute monsters. Now some of my IS builds are pretty scary good on the test server too, but This isn't about the IS mechs. This is about my clan test mechs looking like they will blow everything else away.

[CptnHero]

Carminus, on 03 March 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

Hey PGI google "Witcher 3 Skill Tree".

This is clean:

(Witcher 3)



Your "Old" system




This is not:



You current "old" System was cleaner.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Falconer Cyrus]

Hmm... Survival/Armor structure tree seems strange to me. No development lines, just salad.

[Carminus]

If you get the error 73 when changing node or nodes do this:

1) Click on a node(s) that you do not want anymore
2) Click apply
3) Click on a node(s) that you want
4) Now click apply and it will work.

-Paul

Edited by Carminus, 03 March 2017 - 10:09 AM.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Still doesn't address the high legacy costs of those of use with more that 200+ mechs. Cost needs to come down for existing mechs. New system can apply to all new purchases.

[Falconer Cyrus]

Black Dreamer, on 03 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

First choosen tree is main tree (specialization) and you have enough sp to complete only that main tree alone.

or may be the first choosen tree should be just cheaper compared to the rest.

[YUyahoo]

After playing around with the new skill tree a bit here is my feedback for PGI:

The new tree is a little better than the first version but still suffers from many of the same shortcomings that the first build did, all mechs still have exactly the same number of skill points (a timberworlf which had 3 module slots has the same skill points as a locust that had 5-6 module slots for example), the skill trees are still the same for Light Medium Heavy and Assult mechs and in almost every tree you are still forced to spend points unlocking things you don't want to get a things you do want and in some cases those selections serve absolutely no purpose (if I am running a mech that has no arm hard points I still need to take arm agility nodes to get some of the torso nodes...why? they should be greyed out/unselectable if the mech has not arm hard points...much like the weapon tree, if you only have balistic hard points on your mech all the energy and missle nodes should be greyed out/skip-able). While the exp and cbill cost to unlock nodes has been reduced (and thankfully there is no longer a cost to respect and re-buy nodes you already purchased, that was a huge improvement) the overall cost is still far too high for people who own more than say 20 mechs (never mind those with over 200) and specially for the new player (5+ mil cbills is more than the cost of many of the lights, mediums and close to the cost of a number of heavies...crazy when you think about it: buy a mech for say 3mil cbills, spend another 4ish mil on an xl engine if it is a light/medium, then spend 5+ mil more to master it!).
Right now I think there is far too much clutter in many of the skill trees, some are just much bigger than the ought to be. In the weapon group, I would like to see this huge tree either split into 3 trees, one for all energy weapons, one for all missle and one for all ballistic,or into categories that effect all weapon systems, range, cool down, heat and one catagory that combines duration/spread/jam chance/ammo increase. for the other trees I would like to see them separated into more subcategories as well, something like structure/armor in one tree, arm speed/agility in another, turn speed/accel/dec/stop in another, torso pitch/yaw/twist degrees in another, ecm/seismic/radar deprivation in another, ect...smaller trees to make it easier to select what we do want without having to unlock things we don't to get there. Yes there would be more trees and it would be more clutter on the screen but we wouldn't have to end up with things like target decay in order to have full radar deprivation.
While this iteration of the skill tree is better than the first one it still has many of the same drawbacks as the first one does and the major one that remains is that our current skill systems+modules+quirks still gives us far more for far less (and I'm not just talking about cbills here). I hope we have at least one more build to play test before this system goes live because, while this build is better it still isn't quite as good as what we currently have overall (at least in my opinion)

Edited by YUyahoo, 03 March 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

What baffles me is that we got no quirks which are about radar detection.

Defensive:
Radar detection delay
Radar range delay BASES ON VOLUMETRIC MEASUREMENTS (oh, we suddenly have viable scouts and light mechs which have a minor advantage instead only drawbacks because of their low tonnage!)

Offensive:
Improved radar range
Improced radar detecion

Edited by Bush Hopper, 03 March 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[WarHippy]

JORMUNGANDR MIDGARDSORMR, on 02 March 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

This new skill tree is a global nerf and a feeble attempt at balancing a heretofore unbalanced game. Why would any of these changes go live prior to the advent and injection of new tech and weapons systems into the game this coming summer is baffling in the extreme. There is literally no incentive to spec out an already mastered mech under the current system only to have to respec it this summer when the new tech becomes available. That does not even take into account how many different builds with the new tech one would even wish to try out, especially prior to it even approaching any sort of balance with the currently available tech.

I won't comment on everything you said in your post as I generally agree with all of it(some things more than others). However, I do want to say the above quoted part is pretty important. We really should not be seeing the skill tree on live servers until we have the new tech. By all means lets keep testing things to find the right format for the tree, entirely new trees, or even maybe trees specific to chassis instead of one size fits all. If we have the trees now we are just going to have to redo all of this again when the new tech comes out and I don't think the devs or the players are going to want that. Lets find a structure that works and build from there as we get closer to the new tech with a last couple testing phases for number adjustments right before the live release of new tech and skill trees.

Right now this all feels like we are trying to put the cart before the horse.

[Appogee]

Bug alert.

I fully skilled out my JR7-IIC on the test server, using unlocking all speed and agility tweaks.

However, it barely accelerates at all. It's unplayable.

It's clearly a bug.

Edited by Appogee, 03 March 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[shopsmart]

They took the server down to do maintenance. Most likely a quick fix and tweaking?