358 replies to this topic

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

Leomark Peanuts, on 06 March 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Peaking Alpha
With the above changes peaking alpha tactics and builds will be harder to pull off. It seems roughly a second or so has been added when jumping out and firing and returning to cover. A second that could see you copping alot of return fire.

You did a really good job of breaking it down. Seriously. Anyone who cares enough to put all of that in writing obviously cares about the game.

I take issue with the above though. Since peeking will lead to greater damage, there goes peeking. What will replace it other than hiding, poptarting, and LRMs?

We have BTDT with all of the above. It's REALLY boring. Brawling would be fine with me, but the nearly all of the maps are set up for long range now.

[Dee Eight]

MGEEZ, on 06 March 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

You are grasping at straws. I have never had a situation where I needed 6% more arm pitch to do damage to another mech. And I honestly doubt there is another pilot that has needed it. It's a dead node or point sink. Plain and simple.

No... I can simply do math and realize the benefits better than you apparently. On most mechs...every 6% node = 1.8 degrees of pitch... so when you get five of them...it becomes 30%... which totals another 9 degrees of arm pitch up or down. Also when you go after the arm pitch nodes you'll also go thru a few torso pitch nodes. I added 11 degrees overall to one mech, taking it from 50 degrees combined pitch to 61 degrees (9 on the arms and 2 on the torso). With arm mounted weapons, I can be much closer in horizontal terms to it on the map, and still hit it at a greater or lesser elevation to me. For example... UAVs... they hover at a height 150 meters above the launch point. 61 degrees means I can hit the UAV from only 83 meters horizontal distance. At 50 degrees total I would have to stand back at least 125 meters to hit it.

As another example, on F4 of mining collective is a huge telecommunications dish array. It can be reached by a number of jump capable mechs even without the skill tree nodes (the vipers can all do it as can PHX-1s and other mechs with about 90 meters of jump range). With just the stock 21 degrees of depression, the torso energy mounts cannot hit anything closer than about 500 meters away looking straight forwards out of the dish but with arm mounted weapons being capable of another 30 degrees of depression you can hit stuff only 211 meters away. Another 11 degrees from the skill nodes and you could hit stuff passing underneath the dish even closer.

Now you might not be the sort of pilot to seek out such high spots to place yourself... but if you've ever fought on crimson tide or alpine peak you'll know a large # of pilots do like to go to the top of the mountains to snipe from..and the ability to shoot down the slope at stuff trying to climb the mountains is a very useful ability as well.

[Dee Eight]

MovinTarget, on 06 March 2017 - 04:19 AM, said:

DeeEight has a point. If you don't have arm weapons or poor range of motion, a smart team can use that against you on a map with lots of extreme angles where they can shoot you, but not the other way around.

Granted, most players go torso/locked so this isn't common atm, but at some point it could become much more prevalant...

Easiest way to kill a kodiak 3 that skipped energy weapons is to get above or below it. A locust in its face is basically immune to it due to the difference in height & limited torso pitch.

[BigScwerl]

Looking forward to Testing. I think it looks better than before, but I'm still disappointed about the general major loss of quirks and mech individuality attributes.

[MovinTarget]

BigScwerl, on 06 March 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Looking forward to Testing. I think it looks better than before, but I'm still disappointed about the general major loss of quirks and mech individuality attributes.

It would be nice if they would confirm that the long term goal is to personalize the trees a bit more after a period of data collection...

[Summoner6]

Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS, on 06 March 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

You did a really good job of breaking it down. Seriously. Anyone who cares enough to put all of that in writing obviously cares about the game.

I take issue with the above though. Since peeking will lead to greater damage, there goes peeking. What will replace it other than hiding, poptarting, and LRMs?

We have BTDT with all of the above. It's REALLY boring. Brawling would be fine with me, but the nearly all of the maps are set up for long range now.

I just wanted to leave a detailed feed back to their test server. PGI needs concise feed back about what people like and don't like. Although its seeming that even the player base is struggling to agree on whats wrong with the PTS. Alas, I do agree that the dynamic has changed on many maps. I wish there were more people on the PTS, so I could see what these changes could be like for live. I did notice in my testing that despite the changes all mech weight classes seem to stop roughly within 20-30 meters. This may change from individual mech to mech, but I tried it on crimison straight with the locust and the direwolf, with both coming up similar. So with that you could, if your experienced with your mech become familiar with the stopping distance and still pull off peak play. I can see it slowing down the game a bit. Now holding ground means you have the advantage and flanking and all that jazz will be more important, rather then two hill humper/poptart teams facing off against each other on polar highlands.

However the time factor does make it a big thing a second could mean copping a AC/20 to the face. But I can see its been done to break the meta and slow down the game. God knows FW was all about alpha peaking. IS and Clanners alike would build alpha peakers as effective direct damage dealers. Fire two or three alphas, return to cover let your mate do it too meanwhile your now cool and you repeat that till your targets dead.

[Sevronis]

So took a look at the new changes and I do admit it's an improvement. However, the placement on many nodes still bothers me a little. The main one for me is the weapons tree, while the rest I can tolerate. I feel like all of the generic global weapon nodes should be in the center, with type specific nodes being around the edges. I can be okay with having to go through unneeded global nodes to get the global nodes I want, but I don't want to have to grab type specific ones to do so. A good example is the first ballistic ammo node I have to unlock first if I want to grab that range or cool down one after it. What if I'm making a sniper but there are no ballistics? Or maybe on the energy side, I'm not using any lasers where duration would even benefit me, like the dual ERPPC Shadowcat build. I would need as much range, cool down, and heat I can get without having to unlock ballistic or missile nodes to do so, nor would I even have a benefit unlocking all those duration nodes to reach those global ones I would need for my PPCs.

Basically, the global ones could all be in the center with the weapon type nodes at the far outside. This could require unlocking through those first, and giving you the option to unlock them all before choosing weapon type nodes if you wish, or at least allowing you to still go straight through to the outer-rim weapon nodes if you wanted to save on points to use on other trees. I get that they wish to have a higher impact on give and take, but having to unlock a weapon type nodes to get to another global one, better be beneficial to me regardless. Won't be beneficial if I can't even equip that type of weapon, or if I don't use it in my load out. Though, perhaps having me avoid a useless node and prevent me from attaining the global nodes behind it in doing so is intended in this greater give and take method.

[Dee Eight]

MY short term goal is to finish mastering every mech i currently own, then start replaying every one of the ones not swimming in extra XP, especially any where I own multiples of that variant... who's XP will end up divided between them when it comes time to unlock nodes. Fortunately I don't have many instances of that (usually if I've bought a duplicate of a variant its because I've done so well with it I want multiple build varieties of its hardpoints such as my KDK-3s, ARC-5Ws, GFN-2Ns, KFX-Primes and SDR-5Ds. Let's see...gonna have to do extra play on the TBR-C (I own (C) and (S) versions), all the mech packs where I went collectors in the past 15 months so there's the base and (S) versions of one variant, DWF-W in basic and (S), CN9-A in (C) and (NCIX) versions, two HBK-GIs, two SHC-Prime (C). ACH-Prime (S) and (C).

[Dark Horse X]

Cathy, on 06 March 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

.........for very sound reasons they seem incapable of grasping.

Their reasoning is sound. Premium time will become something more desirable by players as the c-bill/exp grind will become even worse than it is now. Re-configuring skill trees, vs the present module system, adds to the grind even more. Having to grind out weapons, xl engines, endo, double-heat sinks, etc., added to the newly presented skill system increases that grind even more. Your stable of mechs that you would swap modules in, and only had one or so of, now needs the equivalent of each of those modules for each mech you own. That is an astronomical amount of grind to introduce to the game. Consumable costs increase? More grind.

I'm certain PGI is more than aware of the effect of this system they are throwing into the mix, as to it's influence on sales of mechs and Premium time. It's a win for them.

Of course, it is spit polished and painted up as an improvement of the game for all of us players; but it doesn't take that intelligent of a person to see otherwise.

Will adding that incredible of a grind increase or decrease the player base of MWO? With that much of a grind between newbies facing off against a 200-hour master skilled mech actually keep new players around?

But hey, let's add a "Buy Skill Points" slot in the store and that will increase real money sales exponentially. I do foresee that option coming down the pike and am calling it out now for later reference.

The non-linear tree paths is just a smoke screen for the introduction of the Easy button that is coming......"Buy Skill Points".

[XX BURT XX]

Well no flame here, I can not comment much as I did not test live, but you guys know why I play this game? Because I like it the way it is - If I dont, I would be playing something else. So why to change something that kinda works? I think a lot of players feel the same. Maybe just the greenhorns? I can not imagine that developers would change guns performance in Quake or Counter Strike, that would kill all the player base, which was learning to use for months (years).

It is interesting for me that players playing MWO for the longest time (tier 1 maybe?), do appreciate the change to some point - that may be caused by boring repeted stereotypes, or simply wanna try something new. But does it really help the game? I guess time will tell after going live.

Sorry I do not bring any suggestions, but I would cancel this project, and rather focus on physics, weapons, maps, game modes. The Kodiak wrists scream for punch in enemy face with the spikes, Locusts asks for being crushed by King Crabs leggs, but thats just my feel....all the other guys may actually feel need for a new super awesome complicated skill tree to nerf all current mechs and spend more resources on things they never wanted. I think they got all maxed out already, so new mastering will give their life a new meaning.

[TheLuc]

Im pretty much with you Burt.

I did test it and the PTS felt like an overall nerf, all ready the skill tree is not appropriately named as the game is. The name should be Mechwarrior Solaris 7 Online and the skill tree name should be Optimization Tree.

Maybe MW5 will be what some of us are hoping for but my expectations a very low.

[Weeny Machine]

Btw, is there an ETA for the skill tree?

[Morggo]

XX BURT XX, on 07 March 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:

...

So why to change something that kinda works? I think a lot of players feel the same.

...

I believe that sums it up pretty well, actually. "kinda" works.

While admittedly there is a portion of the community that doesn't want a skill tree at all, or wants one vastly different than what is in the works, there is also a portion of the community that very much wants a replacement to the four year overdue temporary placehold that our current skill tree actually is.

So, it's not wasted effort (not to mention many 'content' things like maps, mechs, etc are done by different developers than the skill tree anyway)... the problem comes in where they are trying to please two different audiences in the community with mutually exclusive desires for the game direction.

[XX BURT XX]

Morggo, on 07 March 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

I believe that sums it up pretty well, actually. "kinda" works.

Of course I believe there are other opinons and I do fully respect those. Made me think about the word for a while... good point there :-) With the "kinda" words, you basically have two words in one - the KINDA word, includes both DOES WORK and DOES NOT WORK, sums up perhaps like WORKS OK, WORKS SUFFICIENT, WORKS PARTIALLY, WORKS GOOD ENOUGH. For me - it feels the "KINDA" word does have more positive than negative meaning. Something like 75% positive and 25% negatives. Percentage may change for everybody - but what is that significant bad things in it (in those 25%), that made the devs pushed for such dramatic changes? Because changing this 25% of bad will also wipe all the others 75% of good:) ... resulting probably in mixedbag. Well for me its probably money and economical point of view...but how about for you guys? What exactly, for you, is worth swapping the upcomming tree vs. the current system? Maybe I just do not relize the potential is has. No flame here, sorry if my post seems arrogant or bad, I am just not native eglish speaksmen. We all enjoy this game whatever...if not, it will not be an issue for us anymore and reason to discuss.

[Trev Firestorm]

Dee Eight, on 06 March 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

No... I can simply do math and realize the benefits better than you apparently. On most mechs...every 6% node = 1.8 degrees of pitch... so when you get five of them...it becomes 30%... which totals another 9 degrees of arm pitch up or down. Also when you go after the arm pitch nodes you'll also go thru a few torso pitch nodes. I added 11 degrees overall to one mech, taking it from 50 degrees combined pitch to 61 degrees (9 on the arms and 2 on the torso). With arm mounted weapons, I can be much closer in horizontal terms to it on the map, and still hit it at a greater or lesser elevation to me. For example... UAVs... they hover at a height 150 meters above the launch point. 61 degrees means I can hit the UAV from only 83 meters horizontal distance. At 50 degrees total I would have to stand back at least 125 meters to hit it.

As another example, on F4 of mining collective is a huge telecommunications dish array. It can be reached by a number of jump capable mechs even without the skill tree nodes (the vipers can all do it as can PHX-1s and other mechs with about 90 meters of jump range). With just the stock 21 degrees of depression, the torso energy mounts cannot hit anything closer than about 500 meters away looking straight forwards out of the dish but with arm mounted weapons being capable of another 30 degrees of depression you can hit stuff only 211 meters away. Another 11 degrees from the skill nodes and you could hit stuff passing underneath the dish even closer.

Now you might not be the sort of pilot to seek out such high spots to place yourself... but if you've ever fought on crimson tide or alpine peak you'll know a large # of pilots do like to go to the top of the mountains to snipe from..and the ability to shoot down the slope at stuff trying to climb the mountains is a very useful ability as well.

I cant think of a single mech with arms that would benefit in extra pitch aiming down, they either already can aim beyond what you can actually see due to cockpit obstructions and/or have arms that are so low hanging that they already cant be used to shoot down a cliff without shooting the ground. Not sure about up, most arm weapons can deal with UAVs at fairly close range...

[eggyh4ck99BarrelsAndRumAint1Yar]

This skill tree is like when a friend has food in their teeth and you really don't want to see them go out that way so you let them know. It might be embarrassing but I feel obligated.

Pgi your skill tree blows... A lot

[BerserkFoundMeBootyLostMeShip]

eggyh4ck, on 07 March 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

This skill tree is like when a friend has food in their teeth and you really don't want to see them go out that way so you let them know. It might be embarrassing but I feel obligated.

Pgi your skill tree blows... A lot

Hahahaha!! Agree!

[Aramuside]

MovinTarget, on 06 March 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

Never? I can think of a few situations on tourmaline alone where the grade is *just* severe enough that my high mounted torso weapons shot over their head and to hit meant greater exposure.

Whoops you're are talking arm pitch... turn the tables and be on the low ground shooting up... you can only tip back but so far.

Another example is that uav right over you, giving those pesky lurmers locks... if only you could it from where you were and not have to step out into direct fire too...

Arm pitch is like a lot of other skills... seeming useless until suddenly you really wished you had it...

While I don't mind the node personally as I never lock arms can I be honest and say you're really grasping for straws there with those examples particularly with so many mechs not having actuators etc anyway. That has massively more effect.

[James Argent]

Well, if a mech variant can't possibly benefit from a node (not 'I think it's worthless,' but the subject of the node isn't physically present on that variant) the node shouldn't exist for that variant's skill tree. As in...if this particular variant of a mech can't mount ECM/AMS, it shouldn't have any ECM/AMS nodes in its skill tree. Not too many mechs have zero shoulder actuators, though.

[Trev Firestorm]

James Argent, on 07 March 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well, if a mech variant can't possibly benefit from a node (not 'I think it's worthless,' but the subject of the node isn't physically present on that variant) the node shouldn't exist for that variant's skill tree. As in...if this particular variant of a mech can't mount ECM/AMS, it shouldn't have any ECM/AMS nodes in its skill tree. Not too many mechs have zero shoulder actuators, though.

Its not a lack of shoulder actuators, there are mechs with zero arm hardpoints though.