8 replies to this topic

[ArmageddonKnight]

Greetings.

So I try hard to avoid Meta builds, in this case MWO has always been about the Alpha strike.
Be it Poptarting, or Peaking, the meta is always about the Alpha strike.

As such i run DPS builds instead and I am all for your (PGI) attempts to increase TTK, however...

Whilst an increase to mech toughness/durability is great, though a little lackluster imo, you other way of attempting this is misguided at best, idiotic at worst.

CoolDown isnt an issue or of any consequence to any1 running a meta Alpha build. It just means ether a little longer hidng behind a hill or building, or more likely, wont make a difference as they have to wait for heat to dissipate more so than waiting on weapon CD.

Therefor your 10% nerf to CD bonus predominantly affects DPS builds.

For example:
I run a build on the live server that does 26.66 DPS for a maximum of 16 seconds befor overheating. This is bassed on a stationary mech in Forest Coloney (ambient temp is a factor) 5% CD from Skill and 12% from module. The dmg is not pinpoint ether.

Now with the huge nerf to CD and the remaining CD bonus spread out so far on the weapon tree, getting any CD is pointless beyond that required for other weapon buffs. So in the end I have only 1.5% CD bonus which for my weapons of choice result in exactly 0 noticable increase in DPS above stock. The result is 22.22 DPS on PTS for a maximum of 22 seconds before overheating.

In the event i waste a crap load of points to get all 7.15% CD, the result is 23.88 DPS over about 19 seconds but comes at a massive cost in wasted spec points.

What im getting at here is that the CD nerf is pointless and if you want to increase TTK, then u need to nerf Alpha strike damage.

Best and easiest way to do that without implimenting a silly new system or adjusting weapon stats is to reduce heat capacity and increase cooling efficency. Thus lowering the number and size of weapons that can be fired at once or in short succession but keep the same, or increase, the ability to fire smaller weapons over a longer period (DPS).

IIRC standard mech heat capacity is 40. On live with heat containment and double efficiency that is 48, on the PTS its 46.
I sugest simply removing heat containment all together and buffing Cool Run to compensate so that a the amount of time a set of weapons can be fired for is the same.

Alternativly, leave cool run as is , remove heat containment, add in another skill bonus that increases cooling efficiency further, or even one that increases cooling efficency by a massive amount but reduced heat capacity further below 40.

The result will be smaller alpha's, and thus a longer TTK without nerfing DPs builds which already have a huge disadvantage (face time & inability to peak deal dmg and hide).

Hope you read this PGI.

[tokumboh]

ArmageddonKnight, on 02 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Greetings.

So I try hard to avoid Meta builds, in this case MWO has always been about the Alpha strike.
Be it Poptarting, or Peaking, the meta is always about the Alpha strike.

As such i run DPS builds instead and I am all for your (PGI) attempts to increase TTK, however...

Whilst an increase to mech toughness/durability is great, though a little lackluster imo, you other way of attempting this is misguided at best, idiotic at worst.

CoolDown isnt an issue or of any consequence to any1 running a meta Alpha build. It just means ether a little longer hidng behind a hill or building, or more likely, wont make a difference as they have to wait for heat to dissipate more so than waiting on weapon CD.

Therefor your 10% nerf to CD bonus predominantly affects DPS builds.

For example:
I run a build on the live server that does 26.66 DPS for a maximum of 16 seconds befor overheating. This is bassed on a stationary mech in Forest Coloney (ambient temp is a factor) 5% CD from Skill and 12% from module. The dmg is not pinpoint ether.

Now with the huge nerf to CD and the remaining CD bonus spread out so far on the weapon tree, getting any CD is pointless beyond that required for other weapon buffs. So in the end I have only 1.5% CD bonus which for my weapons of choice result in exactly 0 noticable increase in DPS above stock. The result is 22.22 DPS on PTS for a maximum of 22 seconds before overheating.

In the event i waste a crap load of points to get all 7.15% CD, the result is 23.88 DPS over about 19 seconds but comes at a massive cost in wasted spec points.

What im getting at here is that the CD nerf is pointless and if you want to increase TTK, then u need to nerf Alpha strike damage.

Best and easiest way to do that without implimenting a silly new system or adjusting weapon stats is to reduce heat capacity and increase cooling efficency. Thus lowering the number and size of weapons that can be fired at once or in short succession but keep the same, or increase, the ability to fire smaller weapons over a longer period (DPS).

IIRC standard mech heat capacity is 40. On live with heat containment and double efficiency that is 48, on the PTS its 46.
I sugest simply removing heat containment all together and buffing Cool Run to compensate so that a the amount of time a set of weapons can be fired for is the same.

Alternativly, leave cool run as is , remove heat containment, add in another skill bonus that increases cooling efficiency further, or even one that increases cooling efficency by a massive amount but reduced heat capacity further below 40.

The result will be smaller alpha's, and thus a longer TTK without nerfing DPs builds which already have a huge disadvantage (face time & inability to peak deal dmg and hide).

Hope you read this PGI.

I believe the problem is that we have maps which favour sniping and longer range engagement over that of short range ones. For example back in the day CTF-0XP would be a AC20, 4ML build and it would brawl and it would be fun now you don't get close to brawling in solo queue because of the power of the ERLL/LPL/PPC/Gauss type builds on most maps it means that high DPS builds are actually not much higher than ERLL builds. indeed I run of the CTF-3L(L) 3ERLL rather than the AC20 5ML than I would have normally run because of the fact that the game has turned into a snipe or peak and fire type game pretty much until last man standing, it actually bring a lot of passivity in the game so I am not sure it is much fun.

I still have brawling mechs but I find I have mediocre games most of the time followed by hit od extreme fun in the brawl. it is actually the one good thing about th PTS no matter how crap it is the 4 v 4 format does mean that people close to contact faster and do not attempt to hide and poke as much. We need more brawly maps to go with the range maps we have at the moment only then will I believe the issue of the lack of DPS descepency between long range and short range weapons be answered since it would be then obvious

[Skribs]

What they need to address if they really want to stop alphas is the accuracy of an entire alpha strike.

[Gas Guzzler]

Um you aren't wrong, DPS builds were nerfed, but laser vomit is also hotter than it is on live, so in that respect it also got nerfed.

[Malrock]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Um you aren't wrong, DPS builds were nerfed, but laser vomit is also hotter than it is on live, so in that respect it also got nerfed.

Yes laser builds got hotter but his point is that doesn't matter in the all laser boats want to do is alpha and then hide. You can still get the same alpha in you just wait a second or two more before doing your second one, safely tucked away behind cover. Thus no change to alpha game play.

[kapusta11]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Um you aren't wrong, DPS builds were nerfed, but laser vomit is also hotter than it is on live, so in that respect it also got nerfed.

Gauss PPC meta is going to be reinforced because the alternatives are now nerfed, no?

[MechaBattler]

Kapusta11, any suggestions to counter that beyond just reverting everything?

[Gas Guzzler]

Malrock, on 02 March 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yes laser builds got hotter but his point is that doesn't matter in the all laser boats want to do is alpha and then hide. You can still get the same alpha in you just wait a second or two more before doing your second one, safely tucked away behind cover. Thus no change to alpha game play.

Thats a pretty big downside if somebody pushes you. Cover isn't always perfectly safe. Its also why dakka is in a better place than laser vomit is currently on live.

kapusta11, on 02 March 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Gauss PPC meta is going to be reinforced because the alternatives are now nerfed, no?

Partly but mainly just because the effective range is longer. They still run hotter, and Gauss has significantly less DPS than it did before (with cooldown modules and Fast Fire) which is a down side of you are under pressure. You cant stay in your ideal sniping spot forever.

Also have to remember that dakka now a lotnfaster and more accurate, and then lasers get duration buffs which lessens the PPFLD face time advantage.

There are a lot of factors, im not sure anyone can accurately predict where everything is going to fall in.

Another thing is with accel/decel changes, peak and poke gameplay took a nerf as mechs will be exposed for longer, giving dakka more time to get shots in.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[R Valentine]

+1. I hate the current poptart/peek/hide behind a hill meta. It's the opposite of fun and makes mechs feel like paper. It should not take only 2 or 3 volleys to knock a target down. Alpha strike should also not have such a pinpoint convergence at long ranges. Spread the damage out over the entirety of the reticle. More precise up close, less precise out far. Not the exact opposite, which is what it is now. The map changes haven't helped. The new Frozen City is total garbage. They took what used to be a great brawling map and turned it into sniper central. People never even leave their base. You can practically shoot the enemy from spawn and valley in between makes short work of anyone trying to close in.