29 replies to this topic

[Miodog]

I'm currently waiting to find a match on the PTS to tryout the 2nd iteration. I'm still skeptical of the Skill Tree, especially when it comes to the cost of leveling mechs.
I have spent more money on a video game only once and that was for 7 years of paying a monthly subscription for WoW.

I'm not upset that I spent this money on MWO, I thoroughly enjoy big stompy mech action. I have taken many breaks playing this game though due to the lack of progression in the game. TDM does get old after awhile, no matter what different skin you're using.

What does PGI expect the average user to spend on this game to make it viable? If the answer falls roughly around the 180 dollar amount per year that I paid for Wow why haven't they thought about a monthly subscription?

I ask this looking at the cost I'm going to have to spend on my mastered mechs, some of these that don't have enough experience to master fully in the new skill tree, also I freely admit that I buy and sell mechs as well as modules that I don't use to keep my costs down.

So my question is this, are there not enough new players playing and also paying for MWO that the Skill Tree change is just another tax on the already paid customers to keep this thing going?

Because right now that's how I feel about it.

[Phoolan Devi]

In this game you do not have to spend a dime if you do not want to and the new skill tree is not going to change that! On the opposite....the new skill tree is much more accommodating to new players than the current "skill tree".

[Miodog]

Phoolan Devi, on 04 March 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

In this game you do not have to spend a dime if you do not want to and the new skill tree is not going to change that! On the opposite....the new skill tree is much more accommodating to new players than the current "skill tree".

They won't have to spend a dime but after buying their first mech they are tasked to spend 5,460,000 Cbills and 72,000 in experience points to get one mastered mech.
In order to progress to "End Game Content" you need at least 4 mastered mechs.
To me this is a Grindy new player experience that I wouldn't want to do as a new player and I've been exposed to Battletech for almost 30 years.
So in answer to your statement no they won't have to pay a dime, and that's what I care about who does pay that dime?
I as a new player wouldn't want to grind all of that and as a player who has paid already what I feel is a fair share for a digital product I wouldn't want to grind that again either.

[Alan Davion]

Phoolan Devi, on 04 March 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

In this game you do not have to spend a dime if you do not want to and the new skill tree is not going to change that! On the opposite....the new skill tree is much more accommodating to new players than the current "skill tree".

Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but once the skill trees go live, I imagine it's going to be even more punishing on new players than what we have right now as all the veterans bring in their fully kitted out, fully skilled up meta mechs against the new players and their junky trial mechs with zero skills whatsoever... Both in their mech and in their play style.

[Shadowomega1]

New Players are starting in Tier 5 and working their way into Tier 4 for those playing quick play. I doubt any skilled vets with skilled out meta mechs are going to be very prevalent there. Tier 3 and Tier 2 is where this will see the most effect however and new players are not likely to be in those ranks. While it will still cost C-Bills that is still less then buy 3 versions of the same mech just to master it (only ones to see the cost increase will be IS lights that are not heavily modded).

[Phoolan Devi]

Miodog, on 04 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

They won't have to spend a dime but after buying their first mech they are tasked to spend 5,460,000 Cbills and 72,000 in experience points to get one mastered mech.
In order to progress to "End Game Content" you need at least 4 mastered mechs.
To me this is a Grindy new player experience that I wouldn't want to do as a new player and I've been exposed to Battletech for almost 30 years.
So in answer to your statement no they won't have to pay a dime, and that's what I care about who does pay that dime?
I as a new player wouldn't want to grind all of that and as a player who has paid already what I feel is a fair share for a digital product I wouldn't want to grind that again either.

I answer that with: you get things earlier with much less exp and c-bills than before.

Do you remember how much to grind to just unlock one module? How much c-bills there were to pay for it and how much annoying this mini-game: "find the module" is? Maybe not, since you may be a long time player with enough gxp and c-bills.

I do remember, since I play this game only over a year now. It was a strong grind as it is now....and modules like adv zoom, radar derp, seismic etc pp are now easier to get than ever before!

Alan Davion, on 04 March 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but once the skill trees go live, I imagine it's going to be even more punishing on new players than what we have right now as all the veterans bring in their fully kitted out, fully skilled up meta mechs against the new players and their junky trial mechs with zero skills whatsoever... Both in their mech and in their play style.

....and where exactly is the difference to now?

[Alan Davion]

Shadowomega1, on 04 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

New Players are starting in Tier 5 and working their way into Tier 4 for those playing quick play. I doubt any skilled vets with skilled out meta mechs are going to be very prevalent there. Tier 3 and Tier 2 is where this will see the most effect however and new players are not likely to be in those ranks.

Don't forget though, new players will have the "Cadet" bonuses going and if they manage to be on the winning side enough times, that bonus can very easily sky-rocket them out of Tier 5 and up to Tier 3, even Tier 2 if they somehow do extraordinarily well.

[SmokedJag]

Miodog, on 04 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

They won't have to spend a dime but after buying their first mech they are tasked to spend 5,460,000 Cbills and 72,000 in experience points to get one mastered mech.
In order to progress to "End Game Content" you need at least 4 mastered mechs.
To me this is a Grindy new player experience that I wouldn't want to do as a new player and I've been exposed to Battletech for almost 30 years.
So in answer to your statement no they won't have to pay a dime, and that's what I care about who does pay that dime?
I as a new player wouldn't want to grind all of that and as a player who has paid already what I feel is a fair share for a digital product I wouldn't want to grind that again either.

The new system cost does not compare to the current system. The full Cbill price under the new system is for buying *all* of your skill points including on tertiary or strictly bonus stuff that's not currently a feature of a mastered 'Mech. The Cbill cost under the current system includes three 'Mechs as well as customization costs to make driving the extras tolerable. 5.5 million CBills? Try 34 million in unwanted Dire Whale central torsos as a start. Not to mention the grind involved in unlocking the GDP for all the modules, and the cost of buying a full set (again, with your 4 'Mechs for "endgame," that's 4xRader Derp, 4x Seismic/Target Decay, plus weapon modules).

The new system is much cheaper and more discretionary. It's not a serious argument

[Shadowomega1]

Alan Davion, on 04 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Don't forget though, new players will have the "Cadet" bonuses going and if they manage to be on the winning side enough times, that bonus can very easily sky-rocket them out of Tier 5 and up to Tier 3, even Tier 2 if they somehow do extraordinarily well.

"Cadet" bonus only gives bonus cash for their first 25 matches win or lose. It doesn't apply to the tier rating.

[Kynesis]

Slightly off topic but I feel worth mentioning & reminding people about: The skill tree isn't a talent tree
- insomuch as the skill tree offers only the most minimal trade-offs. It's much, much closer to an MMO's level or gear progression. It's a grind, not a choice.

A talent tree balanced for PvP must have some significant trade-off, say for example a player can choose to have longer range or less spread or shorter duration.

[Marius Romanis]

OP


Wrong forum just to stand out and get feedback ? shame on you !

However with pgis forum management well played sir.

Miodog, on 04 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

They won't have to spend a dime but after buying their first mech they are tasked to spend 5,460,000 Cbills and 72,000 in experience points to get one mastered mech.
In order to progress to "End Game Content" you need at least 4 mastered mechs.
To me this is a Grindy new player experience that I wouldn't want to do as a new player and I've been exposed to Battletech for almost 30 years.
So in answer to your statement no they won't have to pay a dime, and that's what I care about who does pay that dime?
I as a new player wouldn't want to grind all of that and as a player who has paid already what I feel is a fair share for a digital product I wouldn't want to grind that again either.

Jesus Christ BEING ABLE TO MOVE MODULES AROUND WAS EXPLOITING THE GAME the only reason they had them moveable was so you didn't lose 9mil everytime you changed your build and wanted new modules in them. EVERY mech should have modules.

It takes MORE XP to master a mech IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM than the new reduced pts costs. (you have to tier 2 2 other mechs to get 3rd to tier 3 done)

Im going to be rolling in cbills and unusable xp and gxp for my 80 mechs on the new system as it currently stands. Unless I decide to buy duplicates of the same variants for different builds, which there is only 2 mechs im thinking of doing, the GHR-5H and one IS assault that i fear to mention because it is already mentioned too much and it is the IS's final hope.

[Ted Wayz]

SmokedJag, on 04 March 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

The new system cost does not compare to the current system. The full Cbill price under the new system is for buying *all* of your skill points including on tertiary or strictly bonus stuff that's not currently a feature of a mastered 'Mech. The Cbill cost under the current system includes three 'Mechs as well as customization costs to make driving the extras tolerable. 5.5 million CBills? Try 34 million in unwanted Dire Whale central torsos as a start. Not to mention the grind involved in unlocking the GDP for all the modules, and the cost of buying a full set (again, with your 4 'Mechs for "endgame," that's 4xRader Derp, 4x Seismic/Target Decay, plus weapon modules).

The new system is much cheaper and more discretionary. It's not a serious argument

Unless you buy most of your mechs with cash. Then your logic falls apart.

And if you have a large number of mechs I guarantee there will be no way for PGI to adequately compensate players to skill them all to their current level.

Plus I do not have the time nor desire to redo the skills on 300 mechs. So there is that.

Did I mention in many cases I bought or was forced to buy two versions of the same mech? And that I like different loadouts on each. How is that going to work in the new system?

At the end of the day, we the pilots have skills, not mechs. The solution is to have each player skill up their pilot, not mechs. It is really that simple.

[Escef]

Given that there is no MC cost to skill up your mechs, I fail to see how this is going to somehow cost people real world money.

As for the XP cost, for a new player to master his first mech under the current skill system requires buying and kitting out the three mechs, and spending 128,750 XP (enough to take all 3 mechs from no skills to fully elite'd, and the master slot on the third mech). Now, I don't know how math works where you come from, but almost 130k XP and 2 additional mechs worth of C-bills sounds like a LOT more than 72k XP and around 5.5 million C-bills that is required under the new skill tree system. And NEITHER system seems to require MC... Hmm, how about that, no?

[Alan Davion]

Escef, on 05 March 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

Given that there is no MC cost to skill up your mechs, I fail to see how this is going to somehow cost people real world money.

There will be an MC cost if people have to buy MC in order to buy C-Bills in order to skill up their mechs.

[oldradagast]

Moving modules was not an exploit. Heck, there's a pre-match "tool tip" that recommends people do it.

As for if the new system is more expensive than the old, a few points are being missed. Even if it is technically cheaper at first, at least in the old system you got 3 master mechs out of the deal. Here, you spend a fortune in XP and cbills PER MECH. So, yes, the new system is cheaper if your goal is to only level ONE mech vs. more, but who plays a game like this to level only 1 mech? As long as the PER MECH cost is higher, which it is under the new system, it is a step backwards.

And that's just for new players - now, consider the existing players who suddenly have their mechs all effectively de-leveled and who won't have the resources to level them all back up again unless they wasted money buying a full set of modules per mech... and even then, they may not have the experience to level the mechs up. So, bad business decision for experienced players, too.

Finally, we have the absurdly convoluted system of the skill maze itself AND the respec cost, both of which will punish new players and make them waste a lot more time getting lost in the skill maze and wasting resources respecing. While the current skill system is shallow and dull, it is literally the one thing in the game a new player could not screw up. He can buy one of countless trash mechs and stick one of countless trash builds on it, but he can level his mech up the same as an experienced player without having to read 220 skills in a maze format. With the new system, that ease of use is gone and we have yet ANOTHER thing new players will struggle with and waste resources on.

Surely, by now people should realize MWO has a serious problem attracting and retaining new players - turning the skill system into an expensive maze full of good skills gated by bad ones and hampered by respec costs is NOT a good idea.

[Splatshot]

oldradagast, on 05 March 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Moving modules was not an exploit. Heck, there's a pre-match "tool tip" that recommends people do it.

My favorite thing about people saying this was an exploit or what not.

Never mind that I have 184 mechs which, may be a few more that one person should own let alone manage to maintain in working order, i hazard a guess that MWO has more total mechs sold/given to players than were made of most mech variants in lore.

I wonder what my storage and tech costs would be, just for non use of my mechs and letting them sit there.

So yeah, I can arm several planets myself. I think most of us can.

Edited by Splatshot, 05 March 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Escef]

Alan Davion, on 05 March 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

There will be an MC cost if people have to buy MC in order to buy C-Bills in order to skill up their mechs.

If that is the case than the current skill system would require even more MC because it requires significantly more c-bills to BUY TWO EXTRA MECHS.

The idea that the new skill tree is a money making scheme is somewhat farcical.

[C E Dwyer]

Miodog, on 04 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

I'm currently waiting to find a match on the PTS to tryout the 2nd iteration. I'm still skeptical of the Skill Tree, especially when it comes to the cost of leveling mechs.
I have spent more money on a video game only once and that was for 7 years of paying a monthly subscription for WoW.

I'm not upset that I spent this money on MWO, I thoroughly enjoy big stompy mech action. I have taken many breaks playing this game though due to the lack of progression in the game. TDM does get old after awhile, no matter what different skin you're using.

What does PGI expect the average user to spend on this game to make it viable? If the answer falls roughly around the 180 dollar amount per year that I paid for Wow why haven't they thought about a monthly subscription?

I ask this looking at the cost I'm going to have to spend on my mastered mechs, some of these that don't have enough experience to master fully in the new skill tree, also I freely admit that I buy and sell mechs as well as modules that I don't use to keep my costs down.

So my question is this, are there not enough new players playing and also paying for MWO that the Skill Tree change is just another tax on the already paid customers to keep this thing going?

Because right now that's how I feel about it.

The c-bill costs while very annoying and having a big negative effect on experimentation, have a far bigger negative effect on new starting players, so preety much ensures that the future of the game is entirely in the hands of those that still pay for gaming services.

I don't understand how P.G.I can conceive this extra fee as anything but damaging to the games future.

[Ghogiel]

Miodog, on 04 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

What does PGI expect the average user to spend on this game to make it viable? If the answer falls roughly around the 180 dollar amount per year that I paid for Wow why haven't they thought about a monthly subscription?

It probably comes somewhere well under that number. But even if it was close to the $100 yearly sub fee would generate. The game would die or move to a F2P model anyway. Basically that singular example in gaming of WoW where sub fees are a viable business model just doesn't work for 99.9% of the gaming market. Even Franchises such as Elder Scrolls Online and SWTOR are F2P/B2P

MWO has no hope of being sub model successful,

Edited by Ghogiel, 06 March 2017 - 06:45 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Escef, on 06 March 2017 - 05:02 AM, said:

If that is the case than the current skill system would require even more MC because it requires significantly more c-bills to BUY TWO EXTRA MECHS.

The idea that the new skill tree is a money making scheme is somewhat farcical.

Yeah but you don't have to spend C-Bills on Skills in the current system. All you have to worry about is buying the mech and outfitting it as far as C-Bills are concerned.

This new system comes out, you're going to be paying just shy of 5.5 MILLION more C-Bills to master your mech.

Okay, that's equivalent to buying an extra version of certain Clan Light Mechs, almost any IS Medium Mech, and certain IS Heavy Mechs, or certain XL engines.

EVERY.

SINGLE.

TIME.

You want to fully master a mech.

So, let's say I want to re-master my Enforcer 4R and 5D in the new system. The added C-Bill cost is equivalent to buying an extra Catapult K2. For both mechs I want to master.

So yeah, people are going to probably have to buy MC to then convert into C-Bills, so it is a money making scheme.