29 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Alan Davion, on 06 March 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

Yeah but you don't have to spend C-Bills on Skills in the current system. All you have to worry about is buying the mech and outfitting it as far as C-Bills are concerned.

Which costs MORE than skill unlocks in the new system because of the Rule of Three!

Alan Davion, on 06 March 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

So yeah, people are going to probably have to buy MC to then convert into C-Bills, so it is a money making scheme.

Oh, please. It's a worse money making scheme than the Rule of Three was, so get off it. Now you're just being dense to troll.

Edited by Escef, 06 March 2017 - 07:59 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Phoolan Devi, on 04 March 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

In this game you do not have to spend a dime if you do not want to and the new skill tree is not going to change that! On the opposite....the new skill tree is much more accommodating to new players than the current "skill tree".

This.

The skill tree change is hugely in favor of NPE as they do not need nearly the cbills, XP or GXP to have a fully decked mech

It really hurt players that avoided properly decking their mechs out and were just mech collectors. Which might not be that great a move business wise since helping the NPE and growing the game is probably not a great concern/going to happen as a result of the skill tree, and hurting collectors who feel jilted bcause they never truely kitted their huge collection of mechs out to begin with, but fooled themselves in thinking there were being completionist but weren't, might cost more whale dollars in the short term. and that's not good for F2Ps

Edited by Ghogiel, 06 March 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Ghogiel, on 06 March 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

This.

The skill tree change is hugely in favor of NPE as they do not need nearly the cbills, XP or GXP to have a fully decked mech

It really hurt players that avoided properly decking their mechs out and were just mech collectors. Which might not be that great a move business wise since helping the NPE and growing the game is probably not a great concern/going to happen as a result of the skill tree, and hurting collectors who feel jilted bcause they never truely kitted their huge collection of mechs out to begin with, but fooled themselves in thinking there were being completionist but weren't, might cost more whale dollars in the short term. and that's not good for F2Ps

If creating a better NPE is so important that PGI is willing to jettison long-time vets that've spent hundreds - even thousands of dollars, then this game is in trouble. No way of avoiding the elephant in the room. For me? If this skill system goes in with the c-bill costs intact, there won't be any salt headed from my direction. Just a closed wallet and someone that'll have finally moved on for good. Peanuts for PGI on an individual basis. Not good though if there are many others in my boat. New players are what PGI should've been concerned about 4 years ago. Gambling what you already have against what you're hoping to get in the future isn't a sound business practice. It's pushing all your chips to the center of the table and crossing your fingers...

The sad part is that if PGI even tried, they'd be able to figure out a solution that manages both goals. Change the skills system so that all the skills currently under basic or elite exist - and remain mastered for players that've unlocked them, added a new "tier" that covers the module skills for players to unlock as they see fit, and then remove the rule of three in the process. They could do this, leaving the c-bills costs in place, and everything would be fine - and much more equitable for both new players and veterans alike. Why they've opted for a different direction is beyond me...

[Ghogiel]

Tremendous Upside, on 06 March 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Why they've opted for a different direction is beyond me...

Probs blame f2p. Known player psychology and banking on sunk cost fallacy.

It might even have something to do with that in the long run the module system failed under the F2P models modus operandi.

People were able to bypass costs on a per mech basis by swapping modules. The effect of that on small accounts didn't matter much and just having 4-10 sets of modules with 20 mechs was just a QoL thing. But when people were having 100s of mechs and were able to mostly bypass the greatest end game cbill sink in the game (and it was designed as such make no mistake when it costs 18mil + consumables to module a mech), it was problematic and the system was broken.

Also the cbill hike for consumables on the PTS makes me think they aren't just addressing a few broken features in the game, skills and modules, but the player economy as well.

[Alan Davion]

Escef, on 06 March 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Which costs MORE than skill unlocks in the new system because of the Rule of Three!

Let's put that to the test, shall we.

Let's take 2 new players, one in the current system, one in the new.

And we'll use a few variants of the Shadow Hawk as an example of how much it would cost to buy and optimize in the current system, and buy, optimize and master in the new system.

SHD-2H
Base Cost: 4,356,283 C-Bills
Base Loadout: 1 AC5 with 1 ton of ammo, 1 LRM5 with 1 ton of ammo, 1 SRM2 with 1 ton of ammo, 1 Medium Laser, STD275, 3 Class 4 jump jets and 1 Single Heat Sink.

The Meta Mechs build lists the SHD-2H with Endo, an XL255, 2 AC5s and 1 AC2, 5 tons of AC5 ammo and 3 tons of AC2 ammo and a single Class 4 jump jet. You can subtract 1 AC5 since the 2H comes with one stock. The build page says it has the DHS upgrade, but you don't have any tonnage available so I don't see why someone decided to tack on an extra 1.5 million C-Bills for nothing.

Upgrades
Endo, 550k
2nd AC5 250k
Ammo, 22.5k
AC2, 150k
Ammo, 2,925
XL255, 4,165,000
Jump Jet, 76k

Just for s**ts and giggles I'll include the DHS cost of 1,500,000 C-Bills, even though this build doesn't need them due to an almost 2.0 cooling efficiency.

Cost of Upgrades
6,716,425 C-Bills

Total Cost: 11,072,708 C-Bills

SHD-2D2
Base Cost: 4,473,235 C-Bills
Base Loadout: 1 AC5 with 1 ton of ammo, 2 SSRM2s with 1 ton of ammo, 1 LRM5 with 1 ton of ammo, 2 Medium Lasers, STD275, 3 Class 4 jump jets, 1 Single Heat Sink

The Meta Mechs build lists the SHD-2D2 with Endo, an XL270, an AC10 with 2.5 tons of ammo, 4 SRM4s with 4.5 tons of ammo, 2 Class 4 jump jets and 1 Double Heat Sink.

Upgrades
Endo, 550k
AC10, 400k
Ammo, 20k
4x SRM4s, 480k
Ammo, 121.5k
XL270, 4,410,000
DHS Upgrade, 1,500,000
1 DHS, 12k
2x Class 4 jump jets, 152000

Cost of Upgrades: 7,645,500 C-Bills

Total Cost: 12,118,735 C-Bills

SHD-2K
Base Cost: 4,394,783 C-Bills

Base Loadout: 1 PPC, 1 LRM5 with 1 ton of ammo, 3 class 4 jump jets, 6 single heat sinks and a STD275.

The Meta Mechs build lists the SHD-2K with Endo and Ferro, 3 Large Pulse Lasers, 4 Double Heat Sinks, 1 class 4 jump jet and a STD250.

Upgrades
Endo, 550k
Ferro, 275k
DHS Upgrade, 1,500,000
3x LPL, 1,050,000
4x DHS, 48k
1x Class 4 jump jet, 76k
STD250, 1,533,333

Cost of Upgrades: 5,032,333

Total Cost: 9,427,116 C-Bills

So, taking into account the cost to buy the mechs and the upgrades needed to optimize them we're looking at a total cost of 32,508,559 C-Bills.

So, now let's go to the new player under the new system and add another 5.5 million to each mech, for a total of 16,500,000.

That new total to buy, outfit, and now skill up those three mechs comes out to 49,008,559. Somewhere shy of 50 million C-Bills.

That's a cost increase of about 1.5 times more to fully optimize a mech under the new system rather than the old.

So, it's pretty clear that the NEW system is more expensive than the OLD system.

Now you'll probably go on about how I didn't take the cost of Modules into account, how they're now a part of the skill system now.

I was looking at this from the aspect of a completely new player who doesn't know what the modules do and is focused purely on buying a mech and outfitting it under the old system, and a new player who is buying, outfitting and skilling up the same mech under the new system.

That SHD-2H build for example, a cost of 11,072,708 C-Bills under the old system becomes 16,572,708 C-Bills under the new system.

So let's say an average player earns 100k C-Bills per battle, that's 10 battles for every million C-Bills. So that's, let's say 120 battes to buy and outfit the SHD-2H under the old system, and 170 battles to buy, outfit and skill up the SHD-2H under the new system.

That's an increase in the time investment of the game to cover the increased cost of a mech with that 5.5 milion C-Bill skill tax.

So, I'm willing to bet real money that PGI figures this will drive up the sale of MC in order to trade for C-Bills in the game in order to cover the increased cost of mastering your mech under the new system.

It costs 4k MC to buy the 6.5 million C-Bill bundle, which would allow you to skill up roughly one mech. Buy the $50 12k MC pack on the site and that's 3 mechs you can master with the C-Bills you just got out of it.

Seems like a money making scheme to me.

[Escef]

Alan Davion, on 06 March 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

So, now let's go to the new player under the new system and add another 5.5 million to each mech, for a total of 16,500,000.

Why? Under the new system there is NO NEED for the second and third mechs. Are you trolling or just not listening?

[Skribs]

There is no need for 2nd and 3rd Mechs, but that doesn't mean there isn't want. I own more than 3 variants of several chassis, because I like playing all of them.

So, yes, it's cheaper if you want 1 of a Mech and wouldn't want the other 2. If you would want 2 variants (but not 3), I think the time and cost to buy and level 3 and then sell 1 equals out to about the same as the cost to buy 2 and level them in the new system.

If you want 3 variants, it is definitely more expensive (unless you buy modules for each and every Mech).

[Escef]

Skribs, on 06 March 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

There is no need for 2nd and 3rd Mechs, but that doesn't mean there isn't want. I own more than 3 variants of several chassis, because I like playing all of them.

So, yes, it's cheaper if you want 1 of a Mech and wouldn't want the other 2. If you would want 2 variants (but not 3), I think the time and cost to buy and level 3 and then sell 1 equals out to about the same as the cost to buy 2 and level them in the new system.

If you want 3 variants, it is definitely more expensive (unless you buy modules for each and every Mech).

On this I agree. But few new players devote themselves like that. Furthermore, since the new system makes skilling up individual mechs faster for new players it can get them into FW with a proper drop deck sooner. PGI has been pushing FW for a long while, and has dumped a LOT of dev time into it, only to see the FW population stagnate at relatively low numbers. If this gets more people into FW then it might breathe some actual life into it.

[Skribs]

Yes, but they could also remove Rule of 3 without a new skill system. It's a suggestion I made in early beta.

[Escef]

Skribs, on 06 March 2017 - 11:35 PM, said:

Yes, but they could also remove Rule of 3 without a new skill system. It's a suggestion I made in early beta.

Yeah, the old system without rule of three would probably have needed an xp tax for not using the rule. Just my initial thought on that, YMMV. Kind of pointless to discuss now, though.