88 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Wouldn't have to be more nuanced. Arm pitch would be worth less in terms of Threat (i.e. -1) so it buys you nothing when you need at least -3 to to get the PPC heat-gen perk (there are no general heat gen perks).

Ah, my bad. So, thumbs up for you

[Cpt Leprechaun]

I said other on the last vote because I want something like whats proposed here

[Alistair Winter]

Cpt Leprechaun, on 13 March 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

I said other on the last vote because I want something like whats proposed here

100/100. I love that suggestion so much, I wish I had seen it sooner.

The only thing that makes me sad is that I know it's so unlikely PGI will incorporate all his ideas, even though all of his ideas are simply amazing.

On a personal note, I think it's great to see a player make a suggestion like that, which totally encompasses the most important feedback the other players have been making. It goes to show that players are not unhappy no matter what. Some things can be agreed upon. I know I've been negative about certain ideas and suggestions, but this proposal ticks every box I can think of. It's basically perfect, or very close to it. It's just nice to see it demonstrated that it can be done.

I particularly like that his proposal is so easy to balance. Overperforming mechs can just have their fire rating reduced, for example. Furthermore, it's so easy to monitor which abilities are too overpowered and being picked all the time, and which abilities are rarely picked by top players, in any capacity.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 March 2017 - 08:06 PM.

[Jubblator]

No btw, i dont want a simple system ALA WoW. Thats the part that made me leave the game, people are not stupid. Give us complexity =)

[soapyfrog]

Complexity for complexity's sake is meaningless. Battletech and Mechwarrior have never required all this skill tree stuff, so i would argue actually keep it SIMPLE, but meaningful.

[Jubblator]

soapyfrog, on 15 March 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Complexity for complexity's sake is meaningless. Battletech and Mechwarrior have never required all this skill tree stuff, so i would argue actually keep it SIMPLE, but meaningful.

Ofcourse it is, i was referring to them not making the tree linear like its now (or is now in world of warcraft). Its boring as ****, the new tree was not complicated at all to me, thats what i ment. There are actually players like me that looked forward to a more evolved and interactive skill tree that would let you make essentially deeper builds for your mech. You know...they way you want to build it, not only limited to predefined quirks.

On the other hand im used to games like Path of Exile. If want a meaningful and intricate skill tree example, that i find interesting and mildly challenging, then check that out for comparison (if youre curious where i come from).

A side note, making a simple but meaningful tree is extremely difficult and i thought this was simple yet meaningful enough.

[soapyfrog]

I think you are wrong on all points Jubb, and frankly path of exiles tree is for a single player game and not at all balanced.

The proposed skill tree is neither interesting nor meaningful. No hard decisions to make, and you can basically get all the meaningful stuff without sacrifice.

But whatever honestly I wouldn't care if the cost were at all reasonable... A skill tree that is going to be 90% the same for everyone is not much different from a skill tree that is 100% the same for everyone. Situation normal.

[Athom83]

soapyfrog, on 16 March 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

A skill tree that is going to be 90% the same for everyone is not much different from a skill tree that is 100% the same for everyone. Situation normal.

By the same token; most build in game as current are 90% similar (flavors of laser vomit or PPC/Gauss), so why don't we make it so everything is 100% the same?

soapyfrog, on 16 March 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

The proposed skill tree is neither interesting nor meaningful. No hard decisions to make, and you can basically get all the meaningful stuff without sacrifice.

But the only way to make choices more meaningful and decisions harder it to add more skills, which is something you've said you hated the idea of. The new Tree has 70+ Firepower nodes (another dozen added for new weapon tech), 22 Survival, 42 Mobility, 25 Operation, 27 Sensor, and 22 Aux nodes. Thats ~210 nodes to pick from with only 91 you can use at any given time. Add another 20 for mechs that can use jump jets. Even factoring out the ~30 weapon specialty nodes (which you would normally want at least 10 of them), you physically cannot get everything good without sacrificing something else good somewhere else. Sure, there are some specialty nodes you can bypass.

[soapyfrog]

Athom83, on 16 March 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

By the same token; most build in game as current are 90% similar (flavors of laser vomit or PPC/Gauss), so why don't we make it so everything is 100% the same?

You didn't understand what I wrote, I see.

Quote

But the only way to make choices more meaningful and decisions harder it to add more skills,

Well that is obviously not true. You can have a very difficult and meaningful binary choice.

If there were only 30 nodes total, 10 firepower, 10 survival and 10 mobility, and you could only have 10 of them total, you would really struggle as to how to assign your points.

As it is there may be 220 total nodes but a huge chunk of them you either don't need or would not want to invest in.

Quote

The new Tree has 70+ Firepower nodes (another dozen added for new weapon tech), 22 Survival, 42 Mobility, 25 Operation, 27 Sensor, and 22 Aux nodes. Thats ~210 nodes to pick from with only 91 you can use at any given time. Add another 20 for mechs that can use jump jets. Even factoring out the ~30 weapon specialty nodes (which you would normally want at least 10 of them), you physically cannot get everything good without sacrificing something else good somewhere else. Sure, there are some specialty nodes you can bypass.

You can max survival, get all the good parts of mobility, get the majority of buffs for your preferred weapon, and still have a stack of skill points to invest in operation and sensors (plus one for misc!).

It's boring. All mechs are going to basically look like that... there are no meaningful choices. Oooh if you take jumpjets and you really want them buffed you might have to give something meaningful up! Such dynamism.