47 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

The longer I tinker with it, the less concerned I am.

Yes...there are plenty of things that need adjusting, value wise, there are things I would like to see further refined or "fixed", yes. And overall, compared to the hype put into it, and what COULD have been done.....it is underwhelming.

But generally speaking, conceptually, it's not the End of Days like certain broken records like to pronounce (and oddly the same thing they generally pronounce on a weekly basis for one reason or another, anyhow)..... and honestly, taking several of the same chassis and kitting them out with different skill node combos has been pretty interesting tbh.

I've really gotten to see what is or isn't needed, how many of the expected "mandatory" nodes really aren't.

-Weapons Skills are nice for Clans, but aside from laser builds, didn't feel mandatory, whereas to keep up in the arms race, many IS builds will definitely need to invest. Missile builds benefit hugely, though not so much the LRM5 builds, which is how it should be.)

-some mechs really didn't need to touch Mobility Nodes much, if at all (for instance my 300std K2 felt great..without any Mobility Nodes, and my 260std C1 felt fine, too, whether tracking with LRMs or using point defense lasers). All the QQ about Lights DoA due to engine/agility desync.... I'm just not seeing. Will some need values adjusted? I'm sure, and I haven't played all of them, but so far, mostly just the usual hyperbolic handwringing we have come to expect.

-sadly, in most of my Heavies, and at least some Assaults (I plan to check out the rest today and tomorrow), Survival Nodes were pretty much worthless. Whereas in my Lights like PNT and Urbie they seemed to provide substantial (if, thankfully, reduced from previous PTS.... my Urbie had 75 ton mech armor) benefit. Which seemed a little odd that the tanks get less benefit from it than the scouts....

-JJ Nodes were a mixed bag.... but a lot of fun. I don't think any sub 40 tonner except the JJ limited UMs, PNTs and Huginn really need them (watching the Viper and CDA break orbit is pretty fun though), but I found real benefit with most heavier units, although the Assaults generally didn't return to previous poptart status (rats...my heart bleeds). But my Heavy Metal did gain 6-8 meters of elevation, and certainly launched quicker. Whereas my 4JJ VTR didn't seem to notably benefit in height (one thing I plan to test further today) which makes me guess the 3JJ HGNs likely won't impress either...though the VTR did launch significantly faster. My basic take, overall, is while it might need some tweaking... the JJs nodes realyl only make sense to invest in...on mechs you actually plan to invest in mounting JJs. For those hoping this would allow 1-2 JJs to return to their former pogosticking glory? Not so much. As it SHOULD be.

-Sensor nodes are definitely worth it... for certain mechs. Scouts and LRM mechs, mostly. Plan to test them on the Cyclops today, too. For most pokers and brawlers, etc? Probably can be skipped (though some pokers may want that faster data drop).

-Auxiliary.... this one concerns me a little. When you add the Arty/Airstrike Buffs... they seem pretty potent, I dropped a maxed out Arty on an Atlas and turned every inch if armor on it deep orange. Maybe McGral can do his file searching to see what the overall outcome is, between the extended duration and accuracy... but it seemed pretty ouch. The Jenner I dropped an Airstrike on and was left largely with a naked robot. Mind you, stock Jenner armor is nothing to write home about, but it seemed like they can really hurt. And the line of death from the airstrike gets real long with the buffs. Do have some concern of the return of Arty Spam, especially from the more competitive teams. On the flip side, did appreciate the removal of the near useless coolshot 6 for the ability to pack a second useful one.

-Operations. I need to test this further side by side, but most of the time I have only been unlocking 3/4 or so of it. In most cases, seemed fine, but I think a few of the hotter builds may want to open it all to get ever last nip of Heat Contain and Cool Run. Need to compare that side by side still, too.

I really enjoyed several unit like my 2xPPC K2 being able to fire those PPCs pretty continuously, and my LRM15 and 20 mechs being bale to maintain constant fire with twin racks while staying heat neutral, overall (though adding in secondary weapons ran hot pretty fast). My CN9 on the other hand..is likely going to feel the reduction of the RoF for it's AC... and I have no idea if the other changes will make up for that.

And that is a big part of it.... there is only so much pone can really glean from a test server, whether running a Skill Tree Combine in the testing ground, or 4v4. Because so much of what we end up with is comparing it to how things run NOW in the Live Server... when reality is...everything has changed... so something we think is OMG DEAD! quite likely isn't...when you stop and realize... every mech is getting changed, and for the majority, it feels like a minor net reduction in efficiency, especially offensively... which I think is the goal... to extend TTK slightly. Whereas under-performing weapons like Large LRM racks, felt like they were mildly buffed, if you skilled them correctly. Too many people seem to be basis their results on testing a single chassis in a vacuum.

-The sheer scale of changes is both underwhelming (in innovation... still very sad that Role Warfare was not emphasized with this) but simultaneously.... impressive (the sheer scope of really testing the variety of skill combos with the variety of chassis is actually pretty staggering).

-Many values will need adjustment...but likely need real world live server telemetry to really gauge how much.

-While I approve of non linear node acquisition to somewhat curb the 1 dimensional build efficiency, it still felt a little too jumbled, and one should not be forced to grab hill climb to get to speed tweak (which I see being used a lot less overall due to the investment to get there), or unlock Arm stuff to get to Torso stuff, or vice versa. Also Nodes you cannot use (like ballistics while building a Jester) should be grayed out, and able to simply be skipped to get to ones the chassis can use.

Basically if this went Live... I don't see it being the end of the world... just that it will need a lot of immediate attention, and much more rapid response than we have traditionally seen in the past.

I also feel that if they do not add a tutorial to MW Academy, it will severely hamper the NPE, possibly very badly. And one should be able to Test Skill changes in the Testing Grounds BEFORE committing to buying them. And still not sure many of us Pokemech players won't feel shafted by the refunds (got a lot of mechs mastered that surely won't be in the new system).

TLDR;? Tough. This is to big to break into ez little bits for those with no attention span. (one could literally do a post this size on EACH section of the Skill Trees, let alone the Engine De-syncs or the actual base changes to each chassis)

Big thing is... it's change. And no matter how much some people claim they want it... once it hits them in their happy spot.... usually it's a lot less "fun". And overall, this is going to impact everybody, across the board. So it's going to be... uncomfortable. There will be complaining, some justified, some not. But I'm at the point where overall, I'd rather see it go live, and have to be adjusted and fixed, then end up with another huge investment of time and energy scrapped.

Just my observations, after around 20 hours of testing in this iteration. Don't claim it's the gospel, just one person (who has spent a lot of time testing, and is still going to spend a lot more) giving trying to be as unbiased as he can... but freely admitting that the PTS environment is too limiting to make too many definitive claims. So take it for what you will. Or don't.

[mogs01gt]

Since you mentioned AC RoF lacking, can you make mechs like the CN9 or Hunchie more tanky?

[Mcgral18]

Just a comment on the Lights, current iteration un-shat upon them greatly
Almost the same Accel/Decel (in fact, greater Decel for my preferred Pseudo Light chassis)
It dropped the stop distance from 50M (literally unplayable) to 24M (Roughly Live)

It was BAAD, now, just as bad as you'd expect most Lights to be...but I haven't played them all. In fact, only two. LOL at LOLcust 182 M/s^2 decel



I'm not against the idea of the tree, but not a fan of the current iteration

I do like the Radar Derp visual change. The light ping is much brighter, so you don't need to rely on the sound anymore (and it's a pretty Blue for Clam Cockpits, same shade as the UI, VS white for old/Spheroid)

[Bud Crue]

Largely agree. My biggest concern is not the skills tree itself but the, as you put it "many values will need adjustment..." aspect. The preemptive nerfing and the engine decoupling both seriously and detrimentally affect several of my mechs and thus dictate how and what I emphasize in the skills tree. I'd like to think that PGI will be adjusting not only the skills tree values but the quirk or "base line" values of the specific mechs on an ongoing basis, but given PGI's stated goal that they want to dramatically reduce quirks I am not able to visualize just how they can subsequently adjust those values -particularly in light of that stated goal- and the fact that quirks have been the exclusive means of balancing things for so long.

But the skills tree itself? Yeah, pretty meh about it. I think it needs significant organizational changes and I think the UI is terrible, and I think it will be a nightmare for the NPE, but that is frankly all status quo. No my beefs are not with the skills tree itself but rather all the stuff that PGI is throwing in on top of it. Just like with ED and just like with Infotech: the core concept has a lot of potential, but everything being shoehorned on top is ruining that core concept imho.

[Duke Nedo]

I have no concerns about mechanistic changes that hit all equally. I'll adapt to these as long as they don't break entire classes or roles completely.

My two concerns are:

1. What it does to faction balance by preemptive nerfing of the weaker faction. Just wrong.

2. Economy. Latest values seem much better, there's hope it'll not be too bad.

[El Bandito]

The velocity skills need to spread out more, as acquiring +20% velocity is very easy to do with mere 8 SP spent. Compared to that, -15% duration for lasers takes 13 SP, and +9% range for energy build takes 17 SP.

And as Duke had pointed out, the Clan vs. IS imbalance is going to be more pronounced. Meta Clan mechs are basically getting free quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 March 2017 - 08:05 AM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 06 March 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

The velocity skills need to spread out more, as acquiring +20% velocity is very easy to do with mere 8 SP spent. Compared to that, -15% duration for lasers takes 13 SP, and +9% range for energy build takes 17 SP.

And as Duke had pointed out, the Clan vs. IS imbalance is going to be more pronounced. Meta Clan mechs are basically getting free quirks.

There's definitely IS side loss in roughly.50% of their weapon quirks, but on the other hand they gain more (or lose less, depending on perspective) than Clans with the engine decoupling. I don't think this balances, but it's a factor that matters. All those large engines clan Mechs lose a big old chunk of agility, and the base values for many clan Mechs are lower than the comparative IS ones (see HBK vs. HBK-IIC).

---

All in all, I like it. I like having speed impact turning more, so piloting is a bit more interesting.

Otherwise, largely agree with Bish's post above.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 06 March 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

There's definitely IS side loss in roughly.50% of their weapon quirks, but on the other hand they gain more (or lose less, depending on perspective) than Clans with the engine decoupling. I don't think this balances, but it's a factor that matters. All those large engines clan Mechs lose a big old chunk of agility, and the base values for many clan Mechs are lower than the comparative IS ones (see HBK vs. HBK-IIC).

That ironically might further reinforce poptarting since Clan mechs will be more vulnerable in peekaboo trading due to having less accel/decel. Which means JJs offer better chance of dealing damage while receiving less. NGyrs, Timbies, and HBK-IICs could become even more prominent.

[Jackal Noble]

My overall concern with Skill Tree is whether it will ACTUALLY be implemented.



A lot of opportunity here to make the player feel like they actually have control over the character/role of their mech, and indirectly increase depth . Hopefully that opportunity doesn't get wasted.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Just a comment on the Lights, current iteration un-shat upon them greatly
Almost the same Accel/Decel (in fact, greater Decel for my preferred Pseudo Light chassis)
It dropped the stop distance from 50M (literally unplayable) to 24M (Roughly Live)

It was BAAD, now, just as bad as you'd expect most Lights to be...but I haven't played them all. In fact, only two. LOL at LOLcust 182 M/s^2 decel

)

I mostly tested slower lights (adder, Urbio, panther), a single spider and a locust. All of those felt awesome - the slower lights made off like bandits, and the locust certainly ly is the hurting. The 5V spider doesn't jump, it flies. Maybe Jenner's and cheetahs are broken, I don't know - people got really agnsty about my saying I thought the lights I tried felt good.

El Bandito, on 06 March 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

That ironically might further reinforce poptarting since Clan mechs will be more vulnerable in peekaboo trading due to having less accel/decel. Which means JJs offer better chance of dealing damage while receiving less. NGyrs, Timbies, and HBK-IICs could become even more prominent.

Eh, I don't really care about this. Extend the jump shake duration longer after you let off the thrust if it's actually a problem. I'm indifferent to poptarting either way.

[Brizna]

I disagree, the skill tree is an incoherent, cumbersome and tedious mess. It creates more problems than it fixes.

It should be stream lined, 91 clicks to config a mech is about 5 minutes per mech.... you can do the same job reducing the amount of nodes by over a half or more since most of them are so tiny.
Total bonuses achievable should be slightly larger, removing the current XP system, in comparison that system provides much more meaningful bonuses than the new one....
We need actual trees, not that crazy random network. A Branch is about range, another about cooldown and so on. Forcing you to take sensor range to make seismic more expensive as a balance measure because how good is seismic is a silly decision when you can simply make seismic more expensive.
Its random network nature removes much of the choice it's meant to bring since you are forced to spend points on some nodes simply because they are in the way for some random and obscure reason.
Because respecing will cost money PGI needs to start thinking on what they are going to do when the inevitable balance passes hit mechs, because I can tell most people aren't going to be happy about spending money because PGI nerfed their favorite mech, which regardless of the rightfulness of the nerf, is like throwing salt in an open wound.

[MechaBattler]

I'm curious to see if they consolidate the skills into less points. It's something that is commonly complained about. I personally don't mind how big it is. Or the "Mess" it appears to be. There's method in that spidery madness. The firepower tree actually encourages more than one weapon builds by squirreling away a few of the cooldown, range, heat gen skills among the specialty ones.

[Wildstreak]

My concerns about the tree include:

1 - Generic tree same for all Mechs. I would expect a Mech with no Ballistics to NOT have a Ballistic tree but that does not seem the case, instead you can see it but not open it. Values are also the same for all Mechs. Tailoring the tree per Mech would take time but provide a better result.

2 - If Clan gets too much benefit, they could(?) bring some form of the Set of 8 Rule in where if you do not use stock Omnipods, you get reductions in some values.

3 - Boating.

4 - Players not putting enough focus on undervalue Mechs. Saw this during the Quirkening PTS with results like Vindicator getting little while Blackjack got buffs. People may go on the PTS but if they choose Mechs and play as they do on Live, they skip over the same underperformers so those remain down.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

-JJ Nodes were a mixed bag.... but a lot of fun. I don't think any sub 40 tonner except the JJ limited UMs, PNTs and Huginn really need them (watching the Viper and CDA break orbit is pretty fun though), but I found real benefit with most heavier units, although the Assaults generally didn't return to previous poptart status (rats...my heart bleeds). But my Heavy Metal did gain 6-8 meters of elevation, and certainly launched quicker. Whereas my 4JJ VTR didn't seem to notably benefit in height (one thing I plan to test further today) which makes me guess the 3JJ HGNs likely won't impress either...though the VTR did launch significantly faster. My basic take, overall, is while it might need some tweaking... the JJs nodes realyl only make sense to invest in...on mechs you actually plan to invest in mounting JJs. For those hoping this would allow 1-2 JJs to return to their former pogosticking glory? Not so much. As it SHOULD be.

Blame it on the Assault jets working differently than the other 3 classes.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 06 March 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'm curious to see if they consolidate the skills into less points. It's something that is commonly complained about. I personally don't mind how big it is. Or the "Mess" it appears to be. There's method in that spidery madness. The firepower tree actually encourages more than one weapon builds by squirreling away a few of the cooldown, range, heat gen skills among the specialty ones.

That was one of the things I noticed the more I built.... and of course, that is also likely what the more competitive players hate... this does not efficiently allow for maximized single weapon boats......(you can still build efficient ones, but will miss nodes in doing so).... which I am pretty sure is the idea.

Also the more I tinkered with different chassis, the more I found myself straying away from what were initially perceived "must have" Nodes, and often building several variations of the same chassis very differently based on perceived role. One Catapult got a lot of mobility unlocks... (my K2), one got a lot of Sensor Unlocks (my C1(F)). If I had a Butterbee, I would probably have unlocked the JJ Nodes to aid it getting in and out as a brawler.

I'm liking that aspect a lot, because it is encouraging me to really closely pay attention to the stuff, instead of cut and paste metamechs, with everything getting the same unlocks, etc.
I'm sure that some will still distill it thusly, but it doesn't feel anywhere near as cut and dried any more... and really minmaxxing now makes it feel like you are actualyl giving up something to maximize something else. That I approve of.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wildstreak, on 06 March 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

My concerns about the tree include:

1 - Generic tree same for all Mechs. I would expect a Mech with no Ballistics to NOT have a Ballistic tree but that does not seem the case, instead you can see it but not open it. Values are also the same for all Mechs. Tailoring the tree per Mech would take time but provide a better result.

2 - If Clan gets too much benefit, they could(?) bring some form of the Set of 8 Rule in where if you do not use stock Omnipods, you get reductions in some values.

3 - Boating.

4 - Players not putting enough focus on undervalue Mechs. Saw this during the Quirkening PTS with results like Vindicator getting little while Blackjack got buffs. People may go on the PTS but if they choose Mechs and play as they do on Live, they skip over the same underperformers so those remain down.


Blame it on the Assault jets working differently than the other 3 classes.

1: Agree about the generic trees, although being forced to choose does open them up more than I initially thought, I would still prefer to see General Skill Nodes, with specialized Nodes by Weight Class and Role, that actually directly impact your XP and CBill rewards. If Sensor Stuff unlocked reward multipliers for Scout Mechs, I think it might actually encourage more scouting and team work. Sure, for some it will always be pure TDM, but it would help.

2. Interesting thought. Will bear monitoring, for sure.

3: Boating will always happen... but the current nodes really don't allow you to maximize pure boating as efficiently. For instance, my Laser and Missile Mech was far more benefited than my pure Missile Mech. Could I open the same nodes and still use one weapon? Sure. But it's inefficient as hell, and means you are giving up something else. Those 91 pts spend fast, especially if you like Mobility or want to buff your guns.

4: True, but I don't see any way to change this. Here at least I have found several underused gems by building various Node Combos on to them on my own, and been pretty happy. But especially the Meta crowd, will generally ignore anything not deemed to be in the 1%. That said, the movers and shakers of the Crowd, at least, will usually test almost everything, looking for the new 1%. So it'll be tested...but not necessarily to see how to improve it.... just what is "best".


As for JJs...i find the Light JJs just as bad, because they seem to provide minimal upward thrust, initially. I get tired of launching into walls then dragging my face up them. :/

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 March 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner said:

Nice summary that I could almost mirror 100%.

IMHO while I think while the meta-max'ers will continue to meta... A sizable percentage of the playerbase will, like myself, settle in with a vested interest / desire to taylor mechs to a specific role. In short... Less meta-tastic and more role bias.

Obviously, there will be the naysayers who will insist that the skill tree will ultimately result in myopic meta drivel... That said, I've seen/heard more discussion surrounding role specific tailoring than in possibly any time past which leads me to believe folks are tiring of meta and want more out of MWO than apex predator builds.

Edited by DaZur, 06 March 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 06 March 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

Nice summary that I could almost mirror 100%.

IMHO while I think while the meta-max'ers will continue to meta... A sizable percentage of the playerbase will, like myself, settle in with a vested interest / desire to taylor mechs to a specific role. In short... Less meta-tastic and more role bias.

Obviously, there will be the naysayers who will insist that the skill tree will ultimately result in myopic meta drivel... That said, I've seen/heard more discussion surrounding role specific tailoring than in possibly any time past which leads me to believe folks are tiring of meta and want more out of MWO than apex predator builds.

Sadly, for many the only "role" considered is precisely how to minmax to the current meta most efficiently.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

Sadly, for many the only "role" considered is precisely how to minmax to the current meta most efficiently.

That meta however is varies upon the class though, typically (since there are different roles).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 March 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 March 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

That meta however is varies upon the class though, typically (since there are different roles).

to some degree, though for instance right now, it seems to be...how many Goose/Peeps can my Clan Gundams mount, and how many ****** large lasers can my IS Gundam carry.

Take the KDK for instance... it's still going to boil down to best build for the KDK3... and maybe for brawl decks... Spirit Bear. How much time do you expect to see spent on KDK1, 2, 4 and 5s? And how "varied" will they be form the 3 or SB if used?

It's not a "swipe" at competitive crowd.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Big thing is... it's change. And no matter how much some people claim they want it... once it hits them in their happy spot.... usually it's a lot less "fun". And overall, this is going to impact everybody, across the board. So it's going to be... uncomfortable. There will be complaining, some justified, some not. But I'm at the point where overall, I'd rather see it go live, and have to be adjusted and fixed, then end up with another huge investment of time and energy scrapped.

I have to mostly agree
its PGIs game lets just get it over with

I just sit staring at my screen at all those dang nodes

after awhile I started dropping with no mods to my Mechs