188 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

My Assault mech can dish out twice the firepower of a Medium mech. Longer I live, more the team profits from it.

[Kasumi Sumika]

I usually try to become tip of the spear when we have a chance to push as an Assault. But usually my team never push and they legs suddenly become turret, left me to death even we have called out to push. #solopugproblem

[Necro Ash]

In so far as LRM's on assaults I'm guilty.

Running SNV-A currently for Mastering the set and it's 2 ERLgLaser in each arm, 2 lrm 15, 2 lrm 5 (all artemis) with a Probe.

LRm's are not primary, but for hill humping at mid range while closing, The ER's are my "brawlng" weapons (300-600m). So far I'm a pretty decent shot with them:

Think I'm around 323 shots with 250 hits - around 70% for burn type weapon.

build in case you curious on Smurfy:
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=510&l=a5b0dae37a3de7ed593931283535e0e2f719bf70

LRMS have their place among our weapons choices, but harrassing and tracking weapons. People on your team should see missles raining down on something and know there is a target their even LRM 5 missed with rader derp on target. (I use them to sight for the 15's -> fire the 5's, no reaction the 15s go too on him))

You'' find my SNV on the midline near the front ready to respond.

Mind you, I'm also one of the nutjobs that often keeps the JJ on his SNV's, YMMV.

Edited by Necro Ash, 06 March 2017 - 09:24 PM.

[Lances107]

Assaults are not met to push.... LRM assaults are good? Ok then....
On the point yea players now and days have this habit of rushing as fast as possible to the fight. Many times leaving the assaults behind.

On the other hand yes assaults are met to lead the charge, but they are met to do it as whole lance. If one assault goes, but no other assaults are near by, it is suicide. I think I just solved the question of this thread move as a whole lance. Most players are not willing to do that, and will not do that, because they want there god mode moment. Me I am constantly fighting the urge not to hunt my target through hell and back. Just pointing out I am not saying I am the perfect player.

So long as LRMS are given 1000 meter range, and not reduced to 500 meters this problem is not going away anytime soon. As long as players refuse to move as one, this problem is not going away.

One last note if your going to do the LRM thing please for the love of mercy have some sort of back up package of lasers, so when you run out of ammo you are not a useless assault/team member.

[Carl Vickers]

I played an FP match yesterday on polar highlands, someone brought a DDC to the party. I asked the question, are you a brawl DDC or a lurm DDC, both fail options for obvious reasons.

The person replied its me piloting and im good so shut up.

He ended up not dying once for the whole match and got 264 damage, my reply was well played.

[Jingseng]

Weight class doesn't matter. All the hanging back is the cause of losing.

Lights not heading out to scout, hunt, and flank? You lose. Your team wanders about aimlessly, not knowing where or how to position themselves because no one knows where the enemy is, in what numbers, until the team gets picked apart.

Mediums and heavies not leading or following a push? You lose. Those of your heavier (or lighter) teammates who push get picked apart for lack of support. You can't support with a single large laser, or from behind a building, or with LRMs that take SO LONG to arrive (and like as not hit your teammate).

It isn't that any one particular class is hanging back, it is that everyone is hanging back. There are equally valid arguments to be made about why any given class should not be hanging back or fire support. And there are equally valid arguments to be made why any given weight class SHOULD - after all, if the assaults are not hanging back as fire support, who should be? The light and medium mechs without the tonnage to carry long range weapons and ammo (not to mention height scale), in a role which fails to capitalize on their speed and mobility (assuming they don't reposition well)?

Its a pointless statement to make, and all too often just an attempt to justify joining the problem. If no one is pushing, push. If someone is pushing, join them. Don't hang back, don't nascar.

[NRP]

My Supernovas have to be fire support. They're too damn slow and fragile to be front line mechs.

But my Kodiaks, Cyclops, Battlemasters, and Atlases? I'll punch a hole with those.

[Vellron2005]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Disappearing are the days of the brawling assaults...the front liners, you know, the job they were assigned and created to do!!! (with a few exceptions). What I am seeing more and more are assaults created for the fire support role. You know the ones? the LRM 60 Kodiak?!?!? The ERLL/ Gauss Dire, etc. etc.

So here's what typically happens when 3 out of 4 members of Charlie lance are fire support and stand back hoping for targets....

YOU LOSE.

Mediums are suddenly forced to be front liners, a role they weren't designed for. Huge pressure on the remaining heavies (they better be good brawlers now, which often these days many aren't).

...the team falls apart one by one while the fire support assaults sit back with all their precious armor on the outskirts of the battle.

Ughh!!!!

Just the other day I watch a brilliantly adept player (*cough*) with his sole load-out 3ERLL on his Direwolf (!!!!!!!) sit back on the island and attempt to provide fire support while the rest of the team crumbled.

This is a terrible trend, imho. Out of role mechs, the disappearance of the brawling assaults...and now the way it is, everything else being equal, a good predictor of success or failure is the make up of Charlie lance.

:/

MWO meta has absolutely nothing to do with the roles mechs were created for, their tonnage, or anything at all.. Sorry, I'm not gonna run a SRM/AC20 Atlas snail and charge the field, only to get turned to ash by a barrage of PPC and LL fire.. and then look around and see nobody joined the push..

If you want mechs in their "propper roles" you need to have pilots that understand those roles and play them as a team. And MWO is sorely lacking in that department.. it's supposed to be a team oriented game, but most of the time it's solo play.. if you are lucky enough to have an actual active unit, and a proper training program (like CWI used to have, for instance) you stomp. Otherwise, you get into a LRM Atlas and do what you can, you support from range and then brawl when you finally drag your rear torso across that chasm on frozen city..

And yes, LRM80 mechs do comparable damage to their brawling cousins, but from the safety of cover.. and sure, having a few of them in an inactive team can be disastrous, but I've seen plenty of matches where LRMs dominated the field and rained to death on any mech brave enough to poke a head out.. it's not so black and white..

[RestosIII]

I ain't leadin' the charge in my Warhawk Prime lore build. I'll move in once the team actually engages, but you aren't going to make me get into a situation where I'm 300m from the enemy unless there's a DAMN GOOD reason.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Interesting topic.

It sounds like all Assaults are expected to tank. Lights can do this role too
I've seen some fantastic light players who draw so much fire, just from zipping through enemy ranks. I assume they'd die very quickly and yet they don't and cause absolute mayhem (think of how much heat they've generated for the enemy).

Back to Assaults, I remember two assaults pushing the tunnel in Crimson. An atlas and a kdk3, I've not seen such amazing co-ordination/bravery in quite some time. I mean a serious proper push !
Alas me and the rest of the team realised they weren't doing the ole pokeroo, they were doing a proper push, so we turned it into a deathball and created an easy win.

I've stopped expecting Assaults to brawl/tank, I just feel the flow of the match and adjust. I've seen plenty of Assault "support mechs". I don't have a problem with them, as long as they find a contribute. The biggest problem is when too many of them are doing the "Support" role. This is why I wished there was a way to implement role based slots for the 12 vs 12 pug drops.

[Battlemaster56]

RestosIII, on 07 March 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

I ain't leadin' the charge in my Warhawk Prime lore build. I'll move in once the team actually engages, but you aren't going to make me get into a situation where I'm 300m from the enemy unless there's a DAMN GOOD reason.

Random scenario!!!!: Somehow you and your team allowed two fresh Dire Wolves to sneak up behind the lines and start destroying half your team. What do you?



O.S this just some random thought I came up and want to play around with it.

[mogs01gt]

GrimRiver, on 06 March 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Maybe if people shunned and looked down upon nascarers and uber fast mechs that leave the assaults behind then the assaults wouldn't have to fit more ranged weapons just to stay in the fight?I miss brawling in my assaults but I just can't do it anymore cause the whole team has to "Sonic: Gotta go fast" like it's Daytona 500.When I'm in my assaults I have to give up considerable firepower for a bigger engine just so I can keep up.I call it out to the team, but we all know how that ends up with PUGs.

"NASCARING" has zero to do with players and more to do with map design, small maps and the inherent issues of game forcing players to murder ball.


But yes, Assaults sitting in the back is very annoying. By the time they had any damage, my medium is at 50% armor. Long range weapons are simply too strong.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 March 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Assaults are never meant to be front liners anyway. It is a common misconception that most new players perpetuate. Assaults typically carry more firepower than any other mech, and generally because of their size on top of that draw a lot of attention when pushing. So considering all that on a push it is actually better (even for brawling assaults like the Atlas) for them to be in the middle/back end of the pack because mediums and heavies generally can generally use their speed/agility to avoid/spread the first salvos whereas something like the Assault will most likely be stripped or dead fairly early.

Middle of the pack is where assaults thrive because they are the easiest to overwhelm without proper support and because they tend to stand out so it is best to have buddies to help mitigate them being focused down.

That a bunch of horseshit. Assault mechs were always the most important mechs on the field. They did all the heavy lifting, they took all the focus fire and most other mechs were there to support the Assaults.

MWO game modes suck! They're only about damage and kills,which is why we have soo many bad players that only focus on those two stats other than the one that matters, winning.

Edited by mogs01gt, 07 March 2017 - 05:36 AM.

[West Santin]

I love playin my Brawler Assaults - no matter if I'm playing my Dual LB20X 4 SRM6+Artemis Scorch, my 4 SRM6+Artemis 4 MED Pulse SNV-A or 3 SRM6+Artemis Dual LB20X SNV-BR.

I play MWO because of fun and for me it means engaging enemies at close range - not poking at some tiny pixels at max range.

Are they good ? For me - yes.

Are they viable ? Clearly not on every map (say hello to Polar or Alpine).

As mentioned in many posts before - downsides : needs time to engage, if not positioned correctly you get wrecked really quick but IF you're not the only one who's pushing, IF you're in a good spot - it feels absolutely rewarding and makes a lot of fun (at least for me).

Am I annoyed by LURM Assaults, Quad PPC Warhawks etc poking at max range ? Yeah - reason : if you can fit range weapons on an assault it doesn't mean you have to - for me playin an assault also means to share your armour and how could you do that by standing at max range and firing your LUMRs, LLs and PPCs ?

[Bohxim]

West, decent assault players with long range weapons know when to take free shots at range and push up as needed to present a united front. Long range may not be the best build but it allows some assault mechs to be a viable threat at all ranges

[R Valentine]

Given that PGI has no interest in breaking the peek-a-boo meta, assaults will be fitting for sniping for a long, long time. They can't afford to be caught out of position. They're too slow to get back. They're also stupid easy to hit, and dual gauss + PPC meta means the TTK on assault is stupidly low. Most survive only a few volleys if they put themselves in front because every wanna-be sniper and his dog fires at them. Speed is also a huge issue. Mechs in MWO in general are way too fast, with heavies being extremely fast for their weight, mediums being a little too fast, lights being way too fast, and assaults being the only class that actually moves at the speed they should(with the exception of the MAD IIC, that thing is stupid fast for an assault). That just further decreases assault TTK. It's very easy to get behind them and pop their thin rear armor.

[West Santin]

Bohxim, on 07 March 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

West, decent assault players with long range weapons know when to take free shots at range and push up as needed to present a united front. Long range may not be the best build but it allows some assault mechs to be a viable threat at all ranges

I'll agree but most of the time i meet long range assaults who seems to think the indicated weapon range is the minimum range they can fire their weapons.

Firing your LRMs, LLs, PPCs while you closing distance - no problem with that.

Edited by West Santin, 07 March 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[panzer1b]

Now im not going to pretend to be some know it all or great player (T1 but its not like i consistently get 600 dmg games or anything), but from my experience in solo drops brawling is just way too situational to run on anything that cant go around 100kph. The biggest reason brawling just doesnt work (outside of FW and or unit drops) is that yopu never know what map you are on, and sniping (or even mid range) can do something on every map be it alpine, polar snipelands or crimson, and while such builds are bad on brawl maps, there is never a situation where you are unable to do something to the enemy team.

Personally, my weapons of choice in solo drop pub games come down to LPLs, ERMLs, PPCs(ER/STD), and gauss. All of these can hit stuff at least up to 600m (even without quirks/modules), with most capable of hitting past 1km to some degree. I would have included ERLLs too, but the burn times on those are so terrible and they kinda suck against any experienced players that know how to shield and dont poke out of cover long enough to finish that full burn. And ofc im not even gonna mention lurms because they suck against semi competent players that understand the concept of not standing in an open field where they get hit time after time. Also, i tend to gravitate towards mechs that can go around 75kph or higher since it is very likely that the team lacks coordination and will leave behind any slow mechs. My absolute minimum limit has to be 65kph, its risky but you can make it work if you keep holding down W the entire time and dont stop to play sniper unless the entire team stops with you.

Now as for assaults, i have given some a try but every time the speed just killed their enjoyment, and any assaults that have the speed necessary to keep up with the team often enough have similar firepower to the high end heavys, so they end up being very redundant where the heavy is faster, smaller, more agile, and carries almost as many guns. Hopefully the marader IIc will change that next month, some i can build it to go around 70kph with workable acceleration, and still carry considerably more firepower then a heavy can.

All in all, the real issue comes down to players unwilling to share armor and push when the time comes, not the fact that lots are running around with sniper/support loadouts. I often play my timber with 2 ppc and gauss, and even in that i will share my armor with the team, i will push, and the only time i will actually sit in the back and let my team take hits is when im all cored out and would have been killed doing anything else. Hell, i even brawl in that and while im not going to 1 v 1 a true dedicated brawler long term (too hot build), i can put out lots of damage short term and easily core someone out or even kill them with some fire support from teh team. A sniper's advantage is that they can choose to close teh distance and take a few hits when the team needs it (but then also dont have to when they are hurt or the situation is unfavorable), and that is how support builds should be played, all but the squishiest mechs (not going to ask a locust to tank for anyone ) should spend at least some time absorbing fire to keep that fire away from the other players that are often closing the distance to get into shorter ranges.

Sniping and support is fine, but at the least people need to share their armor and move up with teh team when the time is right, not camp in the back and do free damage the entire game until they are faced with a 1 vs 6 situation (or more likely 1 vs 12). This is especially true with lurmboats, if you are playing with lurms takle advantage of the mech;'s armor to draw some fire and attention away from teh team, and ofc do damage while you are at it too with direct firepower (i have nothing against lurmers, but decicated boats that sit well behind the enemy and didnt even bring 2-4 MLs i really get annoyed with)...

[Lykaon]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Just the other day I watch a brilliantly adept player (*cough*) with his sole load-out 3ERLL on his Direwolf (!!!!!!!) sit back on the island and attempt to provide fire support while the rest of the team crumbled.

With 33 DHS 4 ER large lasers and a TC1 and zero remaining crit slots a Direwolf is still 15.5 tons under weight.

[Snazzy Dragon]

By all means, give me an IS medium mech that can mount 5 large pulse lasers, 30 double heatsinks, and have an awesome amount of armor and structure, in addition to excellent agility and high mounts

Oh, wait.

[DrxAbstract]

Bush Hopper, on 06 March 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

You do that at cost of your team. Armour sharing is vital to keep as many mechs running as possible so your firepower remains up. In your case, the few mechs at the front are always focused falling apart first

Armor 'sharing' is an often misunderstood and poorly employed concept usually used as a point of guilting people into taking damage, perpetuating questionable piloting behavior and promoting poor decision making habits. Teams lose for numerous reasons, armor 'sharing' being one of more egregious factors because of poor positioning and some people's willingness to throw themselves into the pit with the impression it'll make the difference when in reality it typically will not, creating a cascade loss of the team's overall Armor.

Armor in any other game would be Health, with the fundamental goal being exactly the same: Win by losing as little of it as possible. Armor is meant to be preserved just as much as weapons are meant to be fired. It's no coincidence long-range poke builds and stratagems proliferate drops, both competitive and pug alike... That doesn't mean you should never lose Armor, as taking damage is often unavoidable, but the pressure put on people to throw their Armor away "for the good of the team" around here is absolutely boggling given the considerable damage output in MWO.

Playing smarter and more efficiently with what you have should be paramount, which includes finding ways to take down enemies by expending as little Armor as possible, exercising thoughtfulness over careless action. This silly notion that your team is going to lose unless adequate sacrifices are made to the Armor God, and the subsequent shaming from it, needs to take a walk.