108 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Stay On. Test. Test a lot of things. Take two identical mechs, skill one, leave the other unskilled. Try different combos. Why? Because the longer you are on there, the more one actually tries stuff? The less WTF it becomes. Are there things that are still just not "right". Yes. But there is a lot more, in premise that actually is making sense, even if in many cases the specific values may be in question.

You are correct, a lot are just seeing one thing and then because they don't like it, calling it useless.

Putting to one side my personal dislike of how messy it looks

There is on the whole more that makes sense, but only if P.G.I factor in the correct values will it be any good, and currently they haven't got the correct values.

I feel this is because they're trying to balance Heavies and not paying any attention to the impact that is having on the other weight classes.

I want this to work and work well, but I just get the feeling it will either get pushed out broken next patch, and it will be considered a failure by the wider community or abandoned, when two or even three months more development, balancing, and throwing out some of the worse module related skills could make it very very good.

[Bud Crue]

Duke Nedo, on 07 March 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

I am merc, I don't whine for my IS mechs. I whine because I want more playable competitive mechs. Dropping in Night Gyrs has been old for a while now.

Competitive schmetitive. I'm an IS loyalist. I whine because I want my f**king prerescale quirks back for my Jester and Quickdraw 5K!

[Bishop Steiner]

Bud Crue, on 07 March 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

Competitive schmetitive. I'm an IS loyalist. I whine because I want my f**king prerescale quirks back for my Jester and Quickdraw 5K!

so you want broken stuff, got it. (I do miss the Jester quirks myself, though)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 March 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

so you want broken stuff, got it. (I do miss the Jester quirks myself, though)

What's funny is that I run PPCs and ERLL on my 5Ks. Broken indeed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bud Crue, on 07 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

What's funny is that I run PPCs and ERLL on my 5Ks. Broken indeed.

Before we had Warhammers, I ran mine as a faster, jumpy warhammer. SRM6, 4x SPL, 2x PPC.

[Malrock]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Stay On. Test. Test a lot of things. Take two identical mechs, skill one, leave the other unskilled. Try different combos. Why? Because the longer you are on there, the more one actually tries stuff? The less WTF it becomes. Are there things that are still just not "right". Yes. But there is a lot more, in premise that actually is making sense, even if in many cases the specific values may be in question.

What are the salient points that are making sense to you? Please expound because i have tested a lot both with and with out skills and on various chasis and it all seems like a complete cluster. I intimated in another thread that I believed that the trees were effectively designed to force you to basically take them all. You said you felt differently but didn't mention how. Only other thing that made any sense was leaving approximately 25% of one key node untaken, and that didn't seem like a truly viable option after considering the trees further and my other options with the points.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Again, what I see is people comparing robots in a vacuum. OH MY GOD!!! This is less so and so than it is live! Without actually testing enough other things to realize.... wait a tick... pretty much EVERYTHING has taken a bit of a performance hit. BOTH factions. Oh, and thnaks to engine Desync... the Clan Heavies aren't all more agile than the IS ones anymore.

Yes everything feels much worse to pilot now, although admittedly not in PTS 3.0 seems like light mechs are better off than they are on live currently. But Mediums feel terrible across the board, turning, brawling, surviving, killing lights... everything, except the shadow cat seemed like the one medium that does not suck as bad and I tested a lot of mediums. As to heavies Warhammers especially felt terrible (agility wise) and brawling ability seems really compromised by these changes.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Meaning what? That outside of poptarts and turrets.... Clanners probably will on average spend more points on Mobility than the equivalent IS will have to Little things like that really add up. But one doesn't get to start seeing the shades of grey and such unless one is willing to test a lot, with an open mind.

Completely disagree with this. To even get your mechs to a some what reasonable state you are required to take the twisting and turning skills on all IS mechs. I couldn't even play my favorite Warhammers with out every single turning skill turned on and even then it is barely playable. I had set up the mobility tree with out taking all the twisting skills in some of my tests and that is completely non viable. I don't find there is single mech is or clan that i wouldn't take complete twist and turn skills on. If there were such a mech it might be one of the clanners so they got the better end of that stick as well.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

The point? Most people really seem to be going into it looking at how to replicate the current Meta, etc.... when the whole point is to try to reduce the gap between Meta and Non. I've been running both IS and Clan and it is hard to overcome the inherent Clan Advantages of their XL, Endo, Ferro and DHS, and undoubtedly values will have to be juggled. But this insistence that PGI has some kind of crusade against IS Players (or Clan Ones, which yes, a goodly number of them claim) is just pretty dang dumb, TBH.

I disagree that the gap has closed any. They Have nerfed all mechs across the board and then allowed you to unerf some portion of them to get back a little what you lost. But they also removed quirks from many mechs that allowed them to compete while giving every mech access to the same trees. This move is puzzling in itself as now they have just nerfed an under performing mech many on the IS side with no power compensation in return.

This doesn't help new players or people in non skilled mechs or even people who are running non meta builds. All it does is punish people who start to pilot a new mech (either because they bought a new mech or because they are a new player) with an experience that is a lot like trying to get an elephant to change directions, which is to say lumbering and ridiculous, and increases the power delta greatly imo between skilled (mechs will points) and unskilled (mechs with out points), thereby making it a noob stomping ground even more so than it already is. And vetran pilots with new mechs are forced to grind through a long hard slog while they endure elphant turning radi, and abysmal overheating all while trying to get upgrades that individually are completely unsatisfying but that when finally stacked together do actually make a difference. Thus making the leveling process completely unrewarding and frustrating. This is all to say nothing of the problems with the ridiculous number of talent trees and points that currently exist that people will find overwhelming. (see this thread for more info on why that is a problem https://mwomercs.com...ce-is-too-much/).

Edited by Malrock, 07 March 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

Before we had Warhammers, I ran mine as a faster, jumpy warhammer. SRM6, 4x SPL, 2x PPC.

Yup. Now yur talkin. Gimmie my quirks back for the sake of the PPCs...WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE PPCS!

I mean come on! This thing doesn't even have velocity quirks.

I can live without the structure they took in July, but I would really like the 10% energy cool down and range that they took in June. Come on PGI, give em back and I'll shut up (It wouldn't kill ya to give back the accel and decel quirks you took from the G and H as well).

[Revis Volek]

This change will be like every single other change PGI has made, because they lack hindsight to see these mistakes they have made already before, and will be horrible for anything IS. Because for some reason PGI has no idea what the power disparities are in the game, no idea of the meta loadouts or even potatoe ones and as a result will even even get close to balance.

I will do with this patch like i do after every Qurkining or Re qurikining or even the Re Re qurikinging...

I will play the too strongk clan mechs and reap the rewards.



I really want a reason to play things like my FS9's or my CDA's, hell id run around in the VIND if it even had a remote chance of wining a 1v1.... ANY 1v1 really. They are gonna go back to square one and the game is gonna be a poop fest for like 3 weeks until they reset or make the same changes they have now. Big ones to certain mechs that are terribad.


I understand everyone is saying they lowered the bar for everything, across the board. But if you have a Stock car and a Sedan which have both had 50HP taken from them which one still wins the race?

Edited by Revis Volek, 07 March 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[oldradagast]

There is no reason to play IS anything if the skill maze goes live in its current form, or even a shuffled around form.

Mech mobility is vastly reduced, with mediums being crushed and heavier mechs being hammered, too. Engine size no longer gets you much, so you may as well load up on weapons. And which faction has an easier time with that? Clan, of course. Finally, IS XL engines are an even bigger death-trap than currently since mobility is reduced.

So, new meta = even bigger gunboats with mobility less of a factor. More sniping and hiding and alpha striking. What "fun" - not.

And this doesn't even touch on the horribly illogical arrangement of the skill maze that will frustrate new players (do we still get those?) and veterans alike with its insane organization, sloppy presentation, and frustrating need to pay to respec. This mess of a skill maze is just a boring grind to slog through, does almost nothing to make mechs feel unique, and is a waste of resources and time. Finally, it will no doubt change regularly, just to add more grind.

Heck, I'm having a hard time justifying playing anything after this stupid mess goes live. What's the point? Everything will be worse than it was before, it will cost a small fortune to level my mechs back up to sub-par performance, and the meta will be even more focused on pinpoint, long-range damage than it is currently. Just buy a KDK-3, cover it in precision weapons, and call it a game. Boring...

[oldradagast]

Bud Crue, on 07 March 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Perhaps, but with the promise of mechs with NEW TECH! And the emphasis of late on clan mechs, I think they can go a heck of a lot longer than a month before the nostalgia junkies start holding back $. I think we are seeing the creation of legacy tech 1.0 if the skills tree goes live as is.

You're probably right. IS junk will become "legacy tech" and you'd better buy the latest Clan monster-mech and lots of premium time to hope to ever level it up. That's probably the new business plan. If so, they can count me out. I'm stopped playing stupid "planned obsolescence" games years ago... heck, I barely ever played Standard format Magic for the same reason. I like buying something, customizing it to make it my own, and then enjoying it for a long time. Admittedly, that doesn't make much money, but I've still put about $150 to $200 into this game, so I'm not the type of "freeloader" they'd hate. But if we're moving to a "chase the latest mech" meta with unofficial, planned obsolescence of older mechs - and thus a lot of my stuff - I'll never spend a dime on this game again.

Bush Hopper, on 07 March 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

...in 3-5 months till enough "data was collected" hehe

And after they collect enough data, they'll nerf machine guns, add 1 m/s speed to the PPC, and give the Awesome 8Q +30 armor on its left leg. We know how PGI handles "data" based on past experiences, sadly.

Nerf something into the ground, ignore for 6 months to a year (or longer), than give it a minor boost - while changing something else at random - and call it a day.

[Sunstruck]

Yes the Orion is still good, and the Black Knight is better on the PTS than live. I think the Jager S was better on PTS too.

[Bud Crue]

oldradagast, on 07 March 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

You're probably right. IS junk will become "legacy tech" and you'd better buy the latest Clan monster-mech and lots of premium time to hope to ever level it up. That's probably the new business plan. If so, they can count me out. I'm stopped playing stupid "planned obsolescence" games years ago... heck, I barely ever played Standard format Magic for the same reason. I like buying something, customizing it to make it my own, and then enjoying it for a long time. Admittedly, that doesn't make much money, but I've still put about $150 to $200 into this game, so I'm not the type of "freeloader" they'd hate. But if we're moving to a "chase the latest mech" meta with unofficial, planned obsolescence of older mechs - and thus a lot of my stuff - I'll never spend a dime on this game again.

Now would be a real good time for some sort of additional commentary from the devs about this stuff. Ya know like a vision statement regarding the skills tree, the associated nerfs, its presumed impact on new tech, the new tech itself. Stuff like that. The PTS announcement stated the goals of the skills tree, but the skills tree as implemented in the PTS is clearly contradictory to those goals. So how about an explanation of what it is you are trying to do here guys? How is it that you really think diversity and choice are increased by removing functionality of the worst mechs in the game? That sort of thing. Just a few words is all it would take to allay some fears or even provide a reason for us to actually be supportive of your hopes and dreams here.

Come on PGI. There are now about 6 threads dedicated to assertions of why folks think disaster is imminent. Your continued silence in a forum room dedicated to "feed back" is not helping the situation or instilling confidence. Address this.

[Jay Leon Hart]

oldradagast, on 07 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

... frustrating need to pay to respec ...

I highly suggest you actually play the current PTS, as this was one of the changes made.

[L Y N X]

Bud Crue, on 07 March 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Don't reserve judgement. Get on the PTS and give them your judgment now. If everyone waits to tell them what they think after the fact, its too late. We will get nerfed mechs and the skills tree as is. Don't wait. The system as proposed is on the PTS for a reason. Get in there and tear it apart and -at least in theory- tell PGI how to make it better, but don't reserve judgement; they NEED your judgement.

I dont have time to beta test. I trust the folks like yourself that do beta test this will do so from a balance standpoint and EXPECT PGI to listen to the beta testers. I rather play the polished game and hope PGI doesnt do a half *** job.

[Lupis Volk]

IF the skill tree goes live then Mechwarrior Online has died and ClannerCarebear Online will rise from it's ashes.

I'm beyond flabbergasted that PGI is nerfing the IS again. They might as well give the blind, deaf kid a server case of limb loss while they're at it.

[Malrock]

L Y N X, on 07 March 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

I dont have time to beta test. I trust the folks like yourself that do beta test this will do so from a balance standpoint and EXPECT PGI to listen to the beta testers. I rather play the polished game and hope PGI doesnt do a half *** job.

Is this because you are too busy trying to grind out a ridiculous number of c bills so you can skill a few mechs when the patch drops? I know the pressure.

[Appogee]

Malrock, on 07 March 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

They Have nerfed all mechs across the board and then allowed you to unerf some portion of them to get back a little what you lost. But they also removed quirks from many mechs that allowed them to compete while giving every mech access to the same trees.

This is it in in nutshell.

[Kmieciu]

I think PGI is using new balancing method: it's called "batch balancing" or "balancing by script".

How else would they come to conclusion that Commando-3A was overpowered with its missile cooldown -30% ?
Meanwhile Mist Lynx Prime still gets missile cooldown -30% ?
You know why? Because MLX has this quirk hidden in 2 omnipods and set-of-8 bonus.
That proves someone at PGI took no more than 10 seconds before deciding on quirk change.

And what about Hunchback-4SP? 50-tonner with 2 missile hardpoints lost 20% missile cooldown and 10% SRM spread.

What did Clan 50-tonners lose?
Hunchback-IIC-B (4 missile hardpoints): nothing
Huntsman (up to 8 missile hardpoints LOL): nothing

[Errinovar]

Novakaine, on 07 March 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

Listen to Bud, take a moment and get on the PTS and see for yourselves.
The WTF moment will be quite amazing.
Don't let PGI do this in the usual vacuum.

I would love to, but I'm not willing to devote resources towards a 7.5 hour download so I can test for them. In fact it is the BS download time that made me decide to go steam after taking an 8 month break (it was telling me 13 hours, it took 20 minutes to install on Steam).

[Taxxian]

@WolvesX

They cut down on IS Quirks because the IS Skill tree is stronger, so there must be bonuses your Cicada gets that are stronger than the ones its clan counterparts get.

You just chose to ignore those bonuses and that invalidates your whole argument! The Cicada is probably still going to loose but this is a big change and I think we can not expect everything to be perfectly balanced after such huge overall changes...

Please stop beeing so negative... you just talk down every new feature that simply does not help anyone!

"We" already canceled Energy Draw... ok now I run arround with an 2 LBX20 4 SRM4 Alphastrike that obliterates everything closer than 200m in no time... when I kill you next time with it you should think "Maybe Energy Draw wasnt that bad an idea..."