117 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Pretty sure 675 meters is pretty much considered mid range in most engagements, and 450 is the border between short and mid.

So, I kind of got to disagree with your supposition.

675 is long range, 450 is mid.

800+: Extreme range (ERLL starts to become useful at these ranges, though typically is best at 1000+)
600-800: Long range
400-600: Mid range
400-200: Short range
0-200: Brawly

At least that's my scale, I find it important to differentiate between short range poke and brawl weapons.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 March 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Spread damage, like "Crit Seeking" is something that increases the weapons "value" from PGI's perspective vs. it's "cost". Adding spread damage is going to increase costs elsewhere, like more heat, lower velocity, longer cycle time.

Spread damage is of very low gameplay value (barring really new players), so it's something you don't want to see on the Snubbie.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skanderborg, on 10 March 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

I wish they made the PPCs disrupt the screen and UI like they did in MW4. They could easily add this in with the updated weapons.

that would be nice... though I could just see PGI using that as an excuse to drop dmg, or raise heat... *sigh* PGI waaaaay overestimates the actual combat value of these "extras" or "peripheral effects".

[Prof RJ Gumby]

One thing for sure, if we don't do something about the 0 dmg close range PPCs, the snub nose will probably either totally replace the normal PPC or be so bad it will be useless. These are the only options when you want to balance against one of the worst weapons in the game ATM.
IS PPCs already have mediocre damage, mediocre range and velocity for sniper weapons, low alpha cap (20) and can make you defenseless if the enemy close in on you (and smart enemy always does that, while not-so-smart enemy only do that in brawlers and lights, so only like 30% of the time).
I would fix IS PPCs 0 damage problem first, then try to balance SN PPCs against their standard, now-useful counterparts.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

that would be nice... though I could just see PGI using that as an excuse to drop dmg, or raise heat... *sigh* PGI waaaaay overestimates the actual combat value of these "extras" or "peripheral effects".

It isn't just PGI that overestimates the actual value, a lot spuds that keep suggesting this also seem to think it somehow makes the PPC more worthwhile. Much like overheating effects in MW4, they are nice to have for immersion, but don't really impact gameplay that much.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 March 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

675 is long range, 450 is mid.

800+: Extreme range (ERLL starts to become useful at these ranges, though typically is best at 1000+)
600-800: Long range
400-600: Mid range
400-200: Short range
0-200: Brawly

At least that's my scale, I find it important to differentiate between short range poke and brawl weapons.

I find 6-700 meters still pretty easy to hit with PPCs, thus my "rating" for range... whereas 800+ it's a lot more difficult unless you found a fattie out in the open.

400-450 I always have considered border line close range, as in, the only reason you should miss anything but a Locust at that range is your weapons simply doesn't reach that far (small lasers, SRMs)

That said, I would still be perfectly content with a 400/600 split on it, which would be 140/480 difference from the std PPC, and still totally obviate Fupdups claim of "OP LONG RANGE".

I'd also note, I did list the velocity as a potential sticking point. I simply do not see any other realistic mechanics to represent their inherent accuracy (which is demonstrated, again, by having a 300 meter "Short" range.) It's something that would require testing, and may, in fact need reduction. But when your maximum range is capped at 6-675 meters, it's hardly going to replace PPCs and ERPPCs that are hitting at 1000+ meters.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 March 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Making it a flat 10 damage out to 450m would make the standard PPC meaningless. The weapon profile already has the answer 270m is it's optimal range, then it falls off down to 5 damage at 450m, 0 at 630m (this is just taking the slope of it's fall off from tabletop). It is meant to be a brick up close and meh further out otherwise a standard PPC well, if it went to 450m with 10 damage it would be a standard PPC that instead of 90m dead zone just had 90m less range.

I mean I am all for making a proper brawl PPC, but, making SNPPC a standard PPC with say instead of partial damage out to 1080m only out to say 600m or 700m, okay, but, I am getting a PPC with no min range, good velocity in the range bracket I want, for a ton less and a slot less. So eh? Mixed feelings on implementation of having a flat 10 to 450m instead of 10 at 270m, 8 at 390m and 5 at 450m.

[Mole]

I think I like your idea, OP. I'd certainly use that weapon.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 March 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

One thing for sure, if we don't do something about the 0 dmg close range PPCs, the snub nose will probably either totally replace the normal PPC or be so bad it will be useless. These are the only options when you want to balance against one of the worst weapons in the game ATM.
IS PPCs already have mediocre damage, mediocre range and velocity for sniper weapons, low alpha cap (20) and can make you defenseless if the enemy close in on you (and smart enemy always does that, while not-so-smart enemy only do that in brawlers and lights, so only like 30% of the time).
I would fix IS PPCs 0 damage problem first, then try to balance SN PPCs against their standard, now-useful counterparts.

I disagree, again, because the PPC still give a (comparatively) low heat alternative to ERPPC, while having again, a 140/480 meter range advantage.

[Gentleman Reaper]

FupDup, on 10 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

High velocity doesn't make sense since it's supposed to be less effective at long range than the regular PPC. Higher velocity gives the Snub PPC a superior effective range (not the same as paper listed range) compared to the normal Peeper.

If anything the velocity should be lower to emphasize the range weakness.

In TT it has an extremely long short range, meaning that it keeps its maximum accuracy much longer than the other PPCs, so a 1500-1600m/s velocity with a range profile of 450-675, leaving the normal PPC with 405 extra meters where it still deals damage, while the SNPPC is far more accurate within it's shorter range.

[Mole]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

I disagree, again, because the PPC still give a (comparatively) low heat alternative to ERPPC, while having again, a 140/480 meter range advantage.

My Awesome 8Q uses regular PPCs to great effect. But it's also bristling with lasers too so it's not like I'm helpless if something gets close.

[Bishop Steiner]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 10 March 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Making it a flat 10 damage out to 450m would make the standard PPC meaningless. The weapon profile already has the answer 270m is it's optimal range, then it falls off down to 5 damage at 450m, 0 at 630m (this is just taking the slope of it's fall off from tabletop). It is meant to be a brick up close and meh further out otherwise a standard PPC well, if it went to 450m with 10 damage it would be a standard PPC that instead of 90m dead zone just had 90m less range.

I mean I am all for making a proper brawl PPC, but, making SNPPC a standard PPC with say instead of partial damage out to 1080m only out to say 600m or 700m, okay, but, I am getting a PPC with no min range, good velocity in the range bracket I want, for a ton less and a slot less. So eh? Mixed feelings on implementation of having a flat 10 to 450m instead of 10 at 270m, 8 at 390m and 5 at 450m.

Fully disagree, since we have a double maximum range in MWO that does not exist in TT. And where I am saying a 4-450 optimal dmg, the PPC still has 540. and almost 500 more meters actual long range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

400-450 I always have considered border line close range, as in, the only reason you should miss anything but a Locust at that range is your weapons simply doesn't reach that far (small lasers, SRMs)

It isn't just about missing but about damage profiles. SRM/SPLs are going to have much higher DPS than say iLPL/iML boats or cMPL boats and they play a bit differently (you can be aggressive in both, but one doesn't want/have to get in someones face necessarily).

[Bishop Steiner]

Mole, on 10 March 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

My Awesome 8Q uses regular PPCs to great effect. But it's also bristling with lasers too so it's not like I'm helpless if something gets close.

yeah my 8Q packs 2x LL/3xML for CQB, and 2x std PPC for long range, which I sometimes combine my LLs with.

[Skanderborg]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 March 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

It isn't just PGI that overestimates the actual value, a lot spuds that keep suggesting this also seem to think it somehow makes the PPC more worthwhile. Much like overheating effects in MW4, they are nice to have for immersion, but don't really impact gameplay that much.

So you're saying that you can maintain your lasers beam duration on a target while you're getting shot with autocannons / missiles or maintain good visibility to target the component you're aiming at? It impacts the game a lot actually , and please say that "im a really good pilot and i can see through explosions and hold my lasers steady".

Edited by Skanderborg, 10 March 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

It isn't just about missing but about damage profiles. SRM/SPLs are going to have much higher DPS than say iLPL/iML boats or cMPL boats and they play a bit differently (you can be aggressive in both, but one doesn't want/have to get in someones face necessarily).

So instead of just obstructing, how about post your own ideal stats for deconstruciton? Again, you will note I flat out stated these were open for debate from the get go. Right now we are arguing over semantics of what is or isn't "short range"...

when the relevant point is it still has MASSIVELY shorter range than the PPC or ERPPC or and somewhat shorter than IS LPLs (which they actually OUTRANGE in TT... . the IS LPL has a max range that matches the Short Range of the SNPPC) and still significantly less range and damage than a C-LPL.

As far as I'm concerned that is what is relevant, not whether you or I have the same definition of a short range engagement.

But 10 ht for a weapon that basically you seem to want to restrain to 300 meters or less effective range? Even being PPFLD, it's total crap compared to the C-LPL for the same tonange... and at that point twice the effective range.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 March 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Already addressed that by giving it shorter ranges, and much steeper damage drop off.

It's supposed to be much more accurate at short range, and it's short range is 2/3 it's max range in the game. How else would you propose to represent accuracy in a FPS environment? Velocity is about the only way to make things "more accurate" in MWO.

And with an "optimal" range of 400-450m, that would translate to a max range of 600-675 meters... with a masisve and steep dmg drop off after that 4-450meter point...obviating your concern about it being a "long range gun".

Pretty sure 675 meters is pretty much considered mid range in most engagements, and 450 is the border between short and mid.

So, I kind of got to disagree with your supposition.

The "high accuracy" thing was only supposed to apply within the "short range" bracket. Long to mid range is supposed to only be average accuracy. The problem is that you're making it more accurate at ALL ranges, not just short range.

If anything, this would be simulated in MWO by having a high INITIAL velocity but it rapidly slows down as it goes further.

Having a high velocity at all ranges just makes it better at mid to long range fighting than a PPC that doesn't have hefty velocity quirks. Having a high on-paper range doesn't mean much if your unquirked velocity is too slow to make use of it.

In general, velocity is directly linked to range. Higher velocity means longer effective range, if all other variables are kept equal. Lower velocity means shorter effective range. The only weapons that have the same effective range as their paper range are lasers because they're hitscan (basically infinite velocity).

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Mole]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

yeah my 8Q packs 2x LL/3xML for CQB, and 2x std PPC for long range, which I sometimes combine my LLs with.

That is my EXACT build. Biggest STD engine it can carry, yes?

[MechaBattler]

I know we would want the Snub-Nose PPC to be higher velocity. But it's based on the PPC. So why would it have a higher velocity? It seems logical that it would be 1200 what the current PPC has.

Also on Sarna it says "An interesting side benefit is the dramatically increased short range, longer than almost any other weapon."

What would that translate to in MWO?

Edited by MechaBattler, 10 March 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

+ Gauss charge mechanic is what I'm hearing for +5 extra PP damage....

Wonder what the charge speed and projectile speed will be.
Could we be seeing the full return of Gauss/PPC meta?

REALLY hope not.

Edited by CDLord HHGD, 10 March 2017 - 01:17 PM.