190 replies to this topic

[InnerSphereNews]

Skill Tree / PTS / Balance discussion with special guest

Chris Lowrey (MWO Game Designer)

Today at 3pm PDT / 6pm EDT / 11pm UTC live on NGNGtv

twitch.tv/NGNGtv

[-Ramrod-]

Balance = maintain ALL inner sphere quirks.

[I am myLoves_Discarded]

Is this going to be today at 3 pm? It is 3:30pm now, and I haven't seen anything yet! I mean you put the news up a half hour before the scheduled start time, then don't bother showing up?

[Edward Hazen]

-Ramrod-, on 10 March 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Balance = maintain ALL inner sphere quirks.

So, keep the crutches?

[Rogue Jedi]

am I the only one who finds it amusing that they posted this 36 minutes before it was due to start?

if you expect someone to listen to something live realisticly they could do with a few days notice, not half an hour.

[DAYLEET]

Im sorry i was a cheap and only bought few modules. Lets see if ill also be sorry i spent so much cash on your game come the 21 Russ.

Edited by DAYLEET, 11 March 2017 - 02:15 PM.

[K19]

New skills tree??
One question? Will refund the "Consumables" that are in MC. I would like to know that I have these numbers right now. 15MC all 2190 Thank you. Show new stf day 14 plz

[Cato Phoenix]

Thoughts:

• Basically stated node-gating was going to stay. Not very thrilled about that.
  
• Costs going down per Russ- I think that's good. (I'm like, beluga-whale size maybe). Obviously it has to be tuned for the economy reasons. But I was always more concerned about the layout of the tree - I wouldn't be exactly flush with the refund, but I would have skilled what I could and totally fine with grinding out the rest. However, now I am just ... not excited about doing it because I think the layout is sub optimal.
  
• I think they have some misperceptions about Solahma's tree. (Which I personally like a good deal.)

Overall not any more optimistic than before about the mechanics, but glad they are at least trying to accommodate the big spenders.

[Lucky Rookie]

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

Edited by Lucky Rookie, 10 March 2017 - 05:22 PM.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

We hear your concerns, we understand your concerns, we're going to do it our way anyway.


Russ


That's fine, I'll take a break from the game until it gets sorted out in 6-8 months.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

I was kinda only half listening, but I think he said something about a new Mechpack being announced on the 14th.

I thought they'd dropped the whole Mechpack strategy for single Mech sales. Can somebody enlighten me, please.

[Mechteric]

Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf, on 10 March 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

I was kinda only half listening, but I think he said something about a new Mechpack being announced on the 14th.

I thought they'd dropped the whole Mechpack strategy for single Mech sales. Can somebody enlighten me, please.

That was true when they started the single mech sales, but they've decided as of now to go back to packs.

I think it's so that there's not just one every month, since that has gotten kinda repetitive, and tends to make the queue jump up for that weight class for a couple weeks. The only thing I didn't like about the packs though is that it was too expensive to go a la carte compared to the singles. Maybe they'll adjust the pricing accordingly for these new packs.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 March 2017 - 05:43 PM.

[Montbard]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

Wow! That is a skill tree that I would be excited about if it was to be implemented!

[Edward Hazen]

Montbard, on 10 March 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Wow! That is a skill tree that I would be excited about if it was to be implemented!

I do like this idea, or maybe something along the lines of the Path Of Exile skill "tree".

[Gannycus]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

Really cool, I like it, it's more simple and interesting than all I have seen in the past PSTs.

[Gorgo7]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

Nice idea, would be more interesting as well.

[SteelHoves]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

I like this skill tree a lot .the firepower section could be scaled back a little but overall much better!!!!

Edited by SteelHoves, 10 March 2017 - 07:18 PM.

[Peiper]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

I like the diminishing returns in this as you totally master a skill.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

How is that really different from the soon- to-be-extinct Module-section except put in tree form? The current skill only has 1.5 layers (full elite 2x basics) while the upcoming tree has it broken up into increments across a wider range. It also allows IGP to reduce the overall effectiveness of said skills/modules/quirks hidden behind the layers instead of making a big hit like they did the last time the Skill Tree was neutered, which also occurred at the same time as when the cXL received with the movement penalty w/loss of one side torso.

Imagine the noise if IGP had not been neutered the current skill tree back then but did it all now, all at one time w/the new skill/module/ quirk tree.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 March 2017 - 07:59 PM.

[tokumboh]

Having listen to this and I had a couple of observations.

1. If the real premise for the skill tree change the idea of triangle of firepower mobility survivability seems to me to not really be solved by the system in place as we have it. does it matter that it does not solve it I suppose it does not since it does not leave us any worse game play wise

2. The skill tree is overly complex and the 'investment' context does not really help and indeed for a new player it is confusing. it pretty much serves as a reset for module swappers and actually make the mech building process more complex for both new and old players without what I believe is the what was hope the gain in flexibility and exploration of the Triangle.

As a exercise try spending 10 skill points on a mech and see if you believe you have progressed, or feel that your mech has done something different.

I say that since for example since you could grind that in a 2 hour sitting comfortably spending it to improve your mech in the short term versus spending it to improve your mech in the longer term is completely different.

In the short term you may go for straight survivability, heat control becomes a biggy as the values compared to live server are much lower. But as you get more points say for a light you may want to actually forego some survivability for mobility on top of the fact now you are trading Skill tree point for actually equipment. For example I ended up changing my builds on the PTS to account for the fact that you need more heat capacity for high DPS/Brawl builds so my 0XP went down from Ac20+4MPL to AC20 +4ML and more heat sinks to make it relevant. and that is with me being able to understand the nuances of the interaction of the system I don't think a new players will be able to do that sort of investing and so we will see more cookie cutter designs since they will safe choices and indeed will not add to the cost of grinding

3. It's the Economy Stupid

I hate the term Free To Play, it should be called Pay Less To Grind. In simple terms I think we want things for free and are upset that when we get it and it is **** we get upset. I would prefer a subscription based model for playing the game but that is me.

4. So1amah's Tree Idea

To be honest, I felt that the So1amah tree and PTS Skill tree look at the solution from completely different perspectives as Chris pointed out. They needed a implicit cost for making choices whereas So1amah tree makes the cost explicit. As I point out in point 2 it means that the skill tree is not complex, you click less and your choices are clearer. Does it lead to min maxing obviously but the current skill tree leads to min maxing at the moment (Again somethign Chris admitted for survivability tree as the best example). So1amah design was simpler and more direct and indeed more tweakable due to that simplicity, The PTS tree is at best somewhat confusing and at worst a mess. In the conversation it appeared that indeed his idea of the firepower tree and the node ideas were completely misrepresented and thus dismissed.

5. PTS and Testing and all that

No one addressed the fact that the test was rather short had very few players playing and therefore could end up being a complete disaster. I would have gone for a weekend giving everyone 50M C bill for those that went and played on the server to get more people to play. We rarely incentivise people to allow testing and that must have a negative cost in terms of profit and respinning stuff.

7 What and Whys of the changes

Actually most of the changes in game play are nothing to do with the skill tree. NObody actually addressed that the fact of Heat/Cool down changes, the weapon changes and overall nerfs. Now it is not that I don't think that there is a need but it is clear the that there is a rationale for most of these changes and that is to increase TTK.

8 My overall view

Overall I felt disappointed that having these guys not really address the fundamentals of their decisions and indeed they countered everything with the philosophy that only they understood it enough. I felt that Chris's explanation were pretty weak as to the design decisions. The UI debacle for me kind of sums up the problems that I have. the changes were a retrograde step as if people insisted on making a change because they could and not really making a change for improvement and then having to essentially walk the change back. Just think of man hours some spent just doing that.