21 replies to this topic

[Oldbob10025]

I've been busy over this last month and didnt really mess with the skill tree that much due to time issues and when this new skill system goes in place I wont have any time at all.

But so lets say I build a PPC build mech only even if it has ballistic hardpoints and I dont like the design or its not meta enough(if you know anything I hate meta and its the evil easy button and no skill at all to use) but when I respect it and want a ballistic design.

I first spent the c-bills and xp or GXP to get the nodes in that tree and then repect it and it cost me nothing to respect it then I go along the Ballistic design and now have to use XP for those nodes?

Would it be better if I spent the XP or GXP in that skill tree say Firepower or Sensors to have all the skill points back so I can rearrange the tree to my liking or mess with a build and play it than spend all the XP (TIME) to use for other nodes for another design in the same tree of say firepower? That would have a lasting effect for a mastered mech than to GRIND XP FOREVER to change out your mech to a different design.

If its the first case who the f*ck wants to spend time to grind forever just to test out a build only to find out its useless. In the case of youtubers that do designs such as Snuggles Time, Molten Metal, among others like myself its a F*cking Time sink. If I wanted to have a time sink I would have a third job in my life. "I dont want that"

just some questions and thoughts

Oldbob10025

[Kojak Bear]

There was no shortage of participation from the MWO community, Sir. I think a significant part of the community did its work, providing PGI all the feedback (rants, more likely, but also some constructive criticism) it needed to make sure the Skill Tree was reasonably polished when it came out, whether it be just a couple of suggestions or proposing complete, detailed overhauls of the system.

Sadly, it seems that Uncle Russ and Friends just can't seem to get it. If this new system will be the blow that kills MWO, I would be really sad because I love this game in spite of its flaws. And I love the community. Hopefully, the community remains (maybe we can transfer the community to MWLL? Or HBS' Battle Tech game when it comes out?) when MWO goes six feet under.

[soapyfrog]

Yes respec costs need to go, especially XP costs.

Someone tweet at Russ that they charge for skill points not skill nodes. It's the easiest fix.

[Wintersdark]

Disclaimer: I'd prefer to have no cost, obviously.

But, we are going to have a cost.

Respecing after you've bought skills once is 400xp per node. My average XP per match according to stats is 1200.

So, I'm looking at nodes per match I play to modify builds.

Given that currently my only use for XP after I've mastered a mech is as a real-money cash sink... This just means I'll continue to burn that XP over time and never convert it to GXP. Well, it'll save me money.

But at 3 nodes per match... Even as a mechlab junkie, I can really live with that. Play half a dozen matches, swap 18 skill nodes. But realistically, I'm not going to change skill nodes every time I make a minor build change. I'll experiment with whatever the old build was, much like how I don't move modules around when randomly experimenting with builds right now. Leave a build on a mech for a while, and I'll quickly build enough XP on that mech to do multiple full rebuilds (and really, how often will THAT happen? I suspect most changes will be very minor really, keeping a big chunk of baseline skills).

So, yeah, it's not ideal from my perspective, but it's really not a big deal.

[soapyfrog]

Again, there does not need to be an "XP sink".

XP does not need to have a use after you have mastered a mech. You shouldn't have to play extra games just to get back something you already 100% paid for.

Respecs should be completely free. If you paid for skill points instead of skill nodes, we wouldn't even have to have this conversation and PGI would still have everything it wants.

[ForceUser]

I have hundreds of thousands of XP on mechs I play even slightly regularly. It'll be nice to actually feel like there was a point to gaining all that XP, a sense that my time playing them was rewarding more than just Cbills.

Edited by ForceUser, 12 March 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[oldradagast]

soapyfrog, on 12 March 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

Yes respec costs need to go, especially XP costs.

Someone tweet at Russ that they charge for skill points not skill nodes. It's the easiest fix.

There's no excuse for a respec cost in a game that is so dependent upon people's ability to customize their mechs. It's counterproductive and idiotic to basically punish people for using the mechlab half of the game. End result will simply be fewer mechs fielded (because nobody is going to waste time regrinding non-meta mechs) and fewer builds used because there's no point in grinding up non-meta builds.

Unfortunately, PGI seems to think they are clever for this little addition to the game, probably assuming people are going to either buy lots of premium time to keep swapping builds or - even more absurd - they assume people will buy lots of copies of the SAME MECH and never change the builds on them. Insanity... worse, though, is how many white knights are trumpeting these changes as "wonderful because PGI lowered the respec cost." Really? That's funny - because the respec cost now is zero, so any cost is higher than what we're paying now. Since when is grind the same as content? Half a crap sandwich is still a crap sandwich, and that's what we're getting with the respec costs in the skill maze.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[soapyfrog]

ForceUser, on 12 March 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

I have hundreds of thousands of XP on mechs I play even slightly regularly. It'll be nice to actually feel like there was a point to gaining all that XP, a sense that my time playing them was rewarding more than just Cbills.

Few others want the ******** time-treadmill you seem to want. Since it doesn't hurt you, and has never hurt you in the past, for xp to accumulate after you are done mastering I would submit that your continued arguing in favour of respec costs is just trolling.

After all, you must realize that needing an xp sink because xp exists is circular logic, and simply rebuying the same things you already had with a pointless currency is just dumb. No one is stupid enough to fall into the trap of thinking they are GAINING something when the actually having something taken away arbitrarily and then having to work to gain it back again.

Nobody actually WANTS Sisyphus's job... that was a punishment and eternal torment.

[ForceUser]

There is no respec now because there is no choice.

Its funny because in one thread someone will say that they will constantly change their builds so respec costs need to go. In another thread they will say the new skill tree offers no choice And there will only ever be one meta build. This isn't the only or even the most obvious example of hypocrisy going around either. Its all quite amusing.

Oh and go ahead with the name calling unlike some that need a safe space from being called cheapscates, words dont actually hurt me.

[Admiral-Dan]

Wintersdark, on 12 March 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

But at 3 nodes per match... Even as a mechlab junkie, I can really live with that. Play half a dozen matches, swap 18 skill nodes. But realistically, I'm not going to change skill nodes every time I make a minor build change. I'll experiment with whatever the old build was, much like how I don't move modules around when randomly experimenting with builds right now. Leave a build on a mech for a while, and I'll quickly build enough XP on that mech to do multiple full rebuilds (and really, how often will THAT happen? I suspect most changes will be very minor really, keeping a big chunk of baseline skills).
So, yeah, it's not ideal from my perspective, but it's really not a big deal.

While it is not a big deal for a single mech, how is it for all your mechs after each balance patch?

These XP sink quickly sums up and PGI had said that the skilltree isn’t finished and will change after it went live. If you have many mechs and these changes are significant, the respec costs sums up to a really big grind.

[Wintersdark]

AlphaEtOmega, on 13 March 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

While it is not a big deal for a single mech, how is it for all your mechs after each balance patch?

These XP sink quickly sums up and PGI had said that the skilltree isn’t finished and will change after it went live. If you have many mechs and these changes are significant, the respec costs sums up to a really big grind.

If the skill tree changes after they go live, they'll refund your skill points, they're not going to make sweeping changes to values and not refund points spent.

[soapyfrog]

ForceUser, on 13 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

Oh and go ahead with the name calling unlike some that need a safe space from being called cheapscates, words dont actually hurt me.

You take pleasure in seeing others suffer, though, don't you?

[Fetherator]

What i learn of this all is.

Even we as players dont find an EASY way to a solution.

Yes, i would like purchasing Skillpoints instead of Skills, would be better for me as a player, but could PGI -> MWO live with it that way???

[soapyfrog]

Why not?

[Athom83]

soapyfrog, on 12 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Again, there does not need to be an "XP sink". XP does not need to have a use after you have mastered a mech. You shouldn't have to play extra games just to get back something you already 100% paid for.Respecs should be completely free. If you paid for skill points instead of skill nodes, we wouldn't even have to have this conversation and PGI would still have everything it wants.

So if you buy something at the store one day. Return to the store the next, throw that thing in the managers face and say "I didn't want this", then return the next day and say "I change my mind again, I wanted it" they should just hand it back to you free of charge?

soapyfrog, on 13 March 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Why not?

Because that isn't entertaining gameplay? I apologize for not wanting instant gratification, but not everything needs to be served on a silver platter.

Edited by Athom83, 13 March 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Athom83, on 13 March 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

So if you buy something at the store one day. Return to the store the next, throw that thing in the managers face and say "I didn't want this", then return the next day and say "I change my mind again, I wanted it" they should just hand it back to you free of charge?

In what sense are you "returning it to the store"? When you unequip mech equipment where does that go?

Quote

Because that isn't entertaining gameplay? I apologize for not wanting instant gratification, but not everything needs to be served on a silver platter.

I fail to see how paying for respecs is "entertaining gameplay"

[Athom83]

soapyfrog, on 13 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

In what sense are you "returning it to the store"? When you unequip mech equipment where does that go?

It was an analogy. To be more accurate, it is removing a costly, fragile component. TO put it back in, you need to cut open the armor, find a spot, safely secure it, flush out any software kinks, test it, then put everything back together before it can be considered field worthy.

soapyfrog, on 13 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

I fail to see how paying for respecs is "entertaining gameplay"

I fail to see how having things handed to me is "entertaining".

Edited by Athom83, 13 March 2017 - 11:50 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Athom83, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

I fail to see how having things handed to me is "entertaining".

I fail to see how rebuying something I already own is "something being handed to me". Especially since you have to pay for absolutely every single thing in this game.

Nevermind the fact that I have for sure put a great deal of work, effort, time, and real money into this game than you have... you have no room to speak really about the impacts of the skill tree or how hard other people should work to get things.

[Athom83]

soapyfrog, on 13 March 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I fail to see how rebuying something I already own is "something being handed to me". Especially since you have to pay for absolutely every single thing in this game. Nevermind the fact that I have for sure put a great deal of work, effort, time, and real money into this game than you have... you have no room to speak really about the impacts of the skill tree or how hard other people should work to get things.

So ideas get merit based on how much money you throw at things? Yes, I don't have thousands of hours sinked into this game. Yes, I didn't spend hundreds of dollars on this game. However, I regularly play this game and would like to get my voice out on how I think the game should go. I have the right and so does anybody and everybody else. The point I am trying to make is; while it does suck and should be reduced, the cost has the purpose of making players think before they act. Think of how a particular skill would benefit them, think about the costs to get those benefits, and think about what they have to sacrifice to get those benefits.

[soapyfrog]

Athom83, on 13 March 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

So ideas get merit based on how much money you throw at things?

No it's more about time, interest, overall knowledge about the game, and ability solve problems thoughtfully in ways that benefit the entire playerbase.

I'm not sure a player who has barely dipped into the game and barely made any effort towards learning to play well has a great deal to say about whether OTHER people are getting too much stuff "for free".

You can say whatever you like but don't expect to get much traction on your "grind builds character" agenda.