53 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Yes, so instead you simply confirm someones else's narrative based on no further actual evidence. That makes a TON of sense.

Amazing to see how rapidly you have gone from moderate to utterly rabid.... because OMG I don't agree that the new Skill Tree is falling... after having taken the time to download and test the hell out of it. (and gosh, go figure, other folks who did extensive testing don't all fall neatly in line with your little narrative, either! *GASP*)

But whatever.

sigh. The shilling is hard.

Okay Bishop Steiner i'm not one who's going around saying "the sky is falling" though congrats on making that up. I'm saying "Won't anyone think of the IS vs Clan balance" you know the most vital thing in the game. But hey why let that get in the way of attacking dissenters comrade.

[Deathlike]

Honestly, only PGI will find out the true result of their own doing AFTER the patch deploys.

If and when they backtrack, determines how far reaching their terrible idea is... no more and no less.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lupis Volk, on 12 March 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

sigh. The shilling is hard.

Okay Bishop Steiner i'm not one who's going around saying "the sky is falling" though congrats on making that up. I'm saying "Won't anyone think of the IS vs Clan balance" you know the most vital thing in the game. But hey why let that get in the way of attacking dissenters comrade.

Did I say you were?

NO.

See, this is where the ******** starts. But some whom you seem so intent on defending like Oldragast, are screaming such at the top of their lungs, with **** all to actually back them up. Others like myself have spent huge amounts of time testing, and there is NO CONCENSUS amongst those who have as some are against, ssome are for, and some are somewhere in the middle.

But you seem to have zero issue with attacking, or dismissing those who have taken the time to test, yet dissent from the narrative you agree with... while rabidly defending those who are just trying to rouse the rabble.

So there ya have it

[Lupis Volk]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Did I say you were?

NO.

See, this is where the ******** starts. But some whom you seem so intent on defending like Oldragast, are screaming such at the top of their lungs, with **** all to actually back them up. Others like myself have spent huge amounts of time testing, and there is NO CONCENSUS amongst those who have as some are against, ssome are for, and some are somewhere in the middle.

But you seem to have zero issue with attacking, or dismissing those who have taken the time to test, yet dissent from the narrative you agree with... while rabidly defending those who are just trying to rouse the rabble.

So there ya have it

Oh so because i haven't gone out and downloaded the PST on my crappy Australian internet All of the information i've gotten is inherently "wrong" Guess what all the screaming got the price of the nodes cut down to 45K but hey how dare those people complain.

Face it Bishop all you've been doing since this started is being a "hollier than thou" person who's dismissed and hand waved away peoples concerns. That's mainly why i've become " utterly rabid" though the white knights are leagues worse, but i digress.

I'm so sorry that the information i've seen hasn't been sanctioned by you. Next time i'll only get my information from you since that seems to be a sore point.

But seriously Why won't people think of the IS and Clan balance?

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 March 2017 - 01:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lupis Volk, on 12 March 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Oh so because i haven't gone out and downloaded the PST on my crappy Australian internet All of the information i've gotten is inherently "wrong" Guess what all the screaming got the price of the nodes cut down to 45K but hey how dare those people complain.

Face it Bishop all you've been doing since this started is being a "hollier than thou" person who's dismissed and hand waved away peoples concerns. That's mainly why i've become " utterly rabid" though the white knights are leagues worse, but i digress.

I'm so sorry that the information i've seen hasn't been sanctioned by you. Next time i'll only get my information from you since that seems to be a sore point.

But seriously Why won't people think of the IS and Clan balance?

Lol.

And again, you hear, but don't listen. Because that apparently your blood is up and drwoning out everythgin but what you WANT to hear.

Where did I say you should have downloaded it?

NOWHERE.

I said you seem content to rabidly back those who post a narrative YOU agree with, while rabidly attacking anyone who post a Narrative you don't agree with. And that it's pretty pathetic that you will back a post by Oldragrast, who has backed it posts with literally NOTHING, but attack me, who did test it, ... because you don't like my findings.

I have literally never waved away concerns, but have reasoned against some of them, and fully agreed with others, in fact I have time and again posted my OWN concerns with the change.

When your blood stops pounding enough you can actually read what is said, I'll be happy to have a discussion with you, but as long as you are going to just blindly back people because you like their narrative better?

Ain't no point.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 12 March 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Honestly, only PGI will find out the true result of their own doing AFTER the patch deploys.

If and when they backtrack, determines how far reaching their terrible idea is... no more and no less.

Once deployed, PGI doesn't backtrack on anything. They will find other ways to try to undo the damage.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Once deployed, PGI doesn't backtrack on anything. They will find other ways to try to undo the damage.

Well, in terms of IS-Clan balance they've already have the option of lower clan skills up their sleeve. Or lowering baseline agility of overperformers.

[oldradagast]

meteorol, on 12 March 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

Math doesn't really help when you are simply assuming base values with a wild guess without having any
indicator of your assumption being correct.

The amount of people "closing their wallet" might aswell be irrelevant to MWO as a whole. I don't know. You don't know.

No, we "don't know" for sure how many people will be closing their wallets, but based upon the facts of how the skill maze punishes so many players and discourages them from spending more money, it is safe to estimate what the outcome of this will be - fewer sales for PGI.

Let's be honest here: can anyone seriously tell me the skill maze is going to make them want to spend MORE money on the game? I'm not talking about throwing money at the screen because New Tech is coming or whatever - is anyone really going to increase their spending because of the skill maze and resulting mech nerfs? Sure, there will be a few people, but that's about it.

Meanwhile, on the side of lost sales, we have angry customers who are stopping their spending on principle, and they logically far outnumber people who are going to spend more because of the skill maze. We then have customers who don't care much either way, but given the amount of time needed to regrind their favorite mechs, they'll surely be spending less not out of anger but out of practicality - they don't need anything new to grind right now, even if they aren't ticked at PGI.

So, yeah - just because we don't know exactly how much money this is going to cost PGI doesn't mean we can't safely estimate that it WILL cost them money and lost sales.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[oldradagast]

Lupis Volk, on 12 March 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Oh so because i haven't gone out and downloaded the PST on my crappy Australian internet All of the information i've gotten is inherently "wrong" Guess what all the screaming got the price of the nodes cut down to 45K but hey how dare those people complain.

I'm so sorry that the information i've seen hasn't been sanctioned by you. Next time i'll only get my information from you since that seems to be a sore point.

But seriously Why won't people think of the IS and Clan balance?

Agreed. The lunacy of the White Knights claiming that a person's judgment on the skill maze is "invalid" because they personally haven't played the exact same PTS as everyone else, collected the exact same data, and then drawn the exact same conclusions is simple madness. I've used the analogy before, but White Knights would be angry if we claimed "sticking your hand on a red-hot stove is a stupid idea" because we haven't personally done that, so "how can we know it's a bad idea?" It is a sign of intelligence to be able to learn from other people's experiences and data; it's not my problem the worst of the White Knights don't understand that.

As for the rest, every single argument I've seen in favor of the skill maze is either factually incorrect, based on wishful thinking - "PGI will surely fix it if it has problems" (yeah, like they fixed Faction Warfare), or driven by one of a handful of serious reasoning errors that can be summed up as trolling or simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

• "If most people hate something, I like it because I like watching other people get angry / suffer / quit"
  
• "If most people support a position with facts, I oppose them, because I'm smarter than most people / people are stupid / my opinions matter more than facts that don't support my position."

It's laughable and is not a valid way to run a game, a company, a nation, or anything else.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 12 March 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Well, in terms of IS-Clan balance they've already have the option of lower clan skills up their sleeve. Or lowering baseline agility of overperformers.

Or buffing IS equipme---nah, that's too hard.

[oldradagast]

Lupis Volk, on 12 March 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

sigh. The shilling is hard.

Okay Bishop Steiner i'm not one who's going around saying "the sky is falling" though congrats on making that up. I'm saying "Won't anyone think of the IS vs Clan balance" you know the most vital thing in the game. But hey why let that get in the way of attacking dissenters comrade.

Arguably the "sky has been falling" slowly for years now. MWO's population has been in steady declines for a good while after the initial Steam bump wore off. Nobody here has yet to present any evidence that this skill maze will reverse that trend, particularly with all the obvious anger in the community that should make it clear to even a casual observer that going forward with this plan as-is will not work out well for MWO.

Will the servers stay on? Sure. Will PGI stumble along to MW5? Hopefully. But MWO will continue to bleed out, slowly. And it doesn't have to happen - that's the point.

Unfortunately, certain immature people are determined to make this personal and attack everyone who disagrees, facts be damned. The absurdity is laughable - their anger should be at PGI for not listening to the community, not at the community for being angry at being jerked around - yet again - by a company with a bad habit of this type of behavior.

Whatever. When MWO finally burns out, I'm sure these forums will be full of raging White Knights blaming it all on everyone but PGI. Because it's our fault for not having infinite patience with BS just to collect one more battlemech, I guess.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[The Zohan]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Agreed. The lunacy of the White Knights claiming that a person's judgment on the skill maze is "invalid" because they personally haven't played the exact same PTS as everyone else, collected the exact same data, and then drawn the exact same conclusions is simple madness. I've used the analogy before, but White Knights would be angry if we claimed "sticking your hand on a red-hot stove is a stupid idea" because we haven't personally done that, so "how can we know it's a bad idea?" It is a sign of intelligence to be able to learn from other people's experiences and data; it's not my problem the worst of the White Knights don't understand that.

As for the rest, every single argument I've seen in favor of the skill maze is either factually incorrect, based on wishful thinking - "PGI will surely fix it if it has problems" (yeah, like they fixed Faction Warfare), or driven by one of a handful of serious reasoning errors that can be summed up as trolling or simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

• "If most people hate something, I like it because I like watching other people get angry / suffer / quit"
  
• "If most people support a position with facts, I oppose them, because I'm smarter than most people / people are stupid / my opinions matter more than facts that don't support my position."

It's laughable and is not a valid way to run a game, a company, a nation, or anything else.

You´re fighting a lost cause really. Seems like PGIs stupid actions will get defended by some no matter what.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Zohan, on 12 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

You´re fighting a lost cause really. Seems like PGIs stupid actions will get defended by some no matter what.

or until a factual, well reasoned argument to the contrary is actually produced. Trumping up stuff doesn't make it so, no matter how much certain people may wish.

[oldradagast]

The Zohan, on 12 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

You´re fighting a lost cause really. Seems like PGIs stupid actions will get defended by some no matter what.

The funny part is that it really doesn't matter to me beyond a certain enjoyment of the game. I've only put about $150 into the game, and that's fine. My wallet is closed until they fix this mess they've created and actually produce content - not just more mechpacks, grind, and wildly oscillating "balance changes" that balance nothing.

Ironically, those who so heavily defend PGI and launch personal attacks at the community are the ones with the most to lose from PGI's ill-conceived actions. They strangely think we should be willing to put up with whatever slop gets served to us, as if MWO is life and we need to "man up and take it!" or this whole thing is some nutty test of our "dedication to Battletech" or some crap. It's not. It's just a game with stompy robots, and one that will, based upon the data shown, be a lot less fun to play for a large chunk of the population after the skill maze goes live.

Ah, well, the white knight rants don't matter. In the end, when MWO does finally fade away, I'm sure this forum will be full of their threads screaming at everyone else about how WE "killed the game" because we refused to keep putting up with slop and pay for it time and time again. Not a word will be whispered against PGI, and nobody will care because everyone else will have left already.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 04:10 PM.

[Coolant]

Talorien, on 12 March 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

1) The Whales

Profile: 100+ mechs. Cash-rich, time-poor. Diehard Battletech fans.

Play motivation: Collectors, builders. Like to collect mechs and master them steadily.

PR/perception gap: PGI is 'taking away progress' and it'll take years to remaster - years where there's no reason to buy new mechs.

Issue: New skill system, perversely, hits hardest those who have spent the most on the game.

Solution: Throw a large bone to show past cash support is appreciated. Something like 1 'full mastery' redemption for every 5 mechs owned.

2) The Customizers

Profile: Own all kinds of modules and mechs. Keep playing to tinker with builds.

Play motivation: Explorers, competitors. Customizers like to explore builds, constantly changing them until they find that one perfect build.

PR/perception gap: Re-unlocking skill nodes feels like wasted effort, going against the fun of exploring builds.

Issue: The new system is 'anti-exploration' because of the grind.

Suggested fix: What purpose does the 400 XP node rebuy cost really serve? Why not let players just go on unlocking new nodes beyond 91 and decide which 91 unlocked nodes they want active at any time?

Your logic is faulty due to only 2 categories and there will be people like myself that fall into neither.

I have over 100 mechs, but not cash-rich, nor do I care much about the lore. I also don't collect mechs just to collect them, nor do I obtain a mech and then feel I must Master it and play nothing else until I do. If I get bored I play another mech. PGI's change to a skill tree will not affect me much at all because my refund will cover the mechs I like to play.

Your 2nd one, Customizers also is faulty, because the Mechlab is remaining exactly the same and so tinkering with builds will be exactly the same as before. However, the skill tree will allow me to think outside the box as I hate following the status quo and so I hope to be different than the next player....something I cannot do now since everyone has exactly the same skills (Basic/Elite/Master). So, in fact, the skill tree will now provide more incentive to play the game than currently.

Edited by Coolant, 12 March 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

but with the engine Decuppling coundnt PGI now remove Clan Agility if they appear too strong?
a TBR with a 375, can now get much less agility than it had before as its engine doesnt give it such,
if for instance the TBR ends up over preforming in the new Skill Tree, a nerf to Agility is now very possable,
where it wasnt really before, as engines and mobility were 1:1, now they arnt 1:1 though Engines do help alittle,
the same goes for IS under performers(Structure + Agility can balance the Factions)

Thing is, engine decoupling doesn't really nerf the PPFLD poptarting builds. PPFLD builds got buffed in the new skill tree, and will bound to be more popular after engine decoupling.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Once deployed, PGI doesn't backtrack on anything. They will find other ways to try to undo the damage.

They can leave it for extended periods of time (minimum 60 to 90 days - see CW Phase 3) or leave it year round like UI 2.0 until actually addressing it.

Either way, we'll all feel the "best qualities" of minimally viable in action... again.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 March 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Johnny Z]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

The funny part is that it really doesn't matter to me beyond a certain enjoyment of the game. I've only put about $150 into the game, and that's fine. My wallet is closed until they fix this mess they've created and actually produce content - not just more mechpacks, grind, and wildly oscillating "balance changes" that balance nothing.

Ironically, those who so heavily defend PGI and launch personal attacks at the community are the ones with the most to lose from PGI's ill-conceived actions. They strangely think we should be willing to put up with whatever slop gets served to us, as if MWO is life and we need to "man up and take it!" or this whole thing is some nutty test of our "dedication to Battletech" or some crap. It's not. It's just a game with stompy robots, and one that will, based upon the data shown, be a lot less fun to play for a large chunk of the population after the skill maze goes live.

Ah, well, the white knight rants don't matter. In the end, when MWO does finally fade away, I'm sure this forum will be full of their threads screaming at everyone else about how WE "killed the game" because we refused to keep putting up with slop and pay for it time and time again. Not a word will be whispered against PGI, and nobody will care because everyone else will have left already.

Is it about making a good game or about making money? One should follow the other in an ideal world.

So the most important question is, will it be a better game.

[Deathlike]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Is it about making a good game or about making money? One should follow the other in an ideal world.

So the most important question is, will it be a better game.

Usually making a good game contributes to making more money.

It is possible to make money w/o making a good game, but that tends to be unsustainable at some point.

It's possible to make a good game, but not make money... though that is an issue with the monetization strategy.

Unfortunately, this game hasn't progressed that much, so making money is primarily dictated by how the "whales" feel about the changes.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Founder, Whale -close my Wallet 2016 ,end the play Dezember 2016-now play MW4 Merc for Battletech Ambiente
after
Rescaling Disaster
FW Disaster (its only Group Fight with no strategical Ambient)
Championship Disaster
Match maker is horrible (to many Players????)
and now the Skilltree with no Class/Mech specifications and all Skills for all mechs =bad Mechs =bad Mechs -and Meta now more meta
Future of MWO ???? Who the manpower for MWO ? Communication for new Maps ? for Ideas for Gameplay and a true FW ?
MWO has many technical problems, more a all other wargames...Hitreg is horrible, Hitzones of many Assets terrible
PGI has not the manpower for MWO and this company has Manpower for MW5 ? MW5 or Transverse 2 ...MW5 a Mechcon Marketing Gag (with many Material from HBS like the Tanks, Union Dropships )to hold the Community by PGI

PGI has nothing Ideas for Gamedesign or Gamemechanics...

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 12 March 2017 - 07:21 PM.