53 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

But they did. Look at the nodes of light mechs to nodes of other mech classes. You will see some of the percentages are different, and from what I understand they left it open for them to go back in and change the numbers on the nodes later for a per chassis bases if need be.

Yeah, there is that, but it applies only to the Survivability tree right now...which they cut in half from PTS2 to PTS3 and which will now require greater investment when it goes live to get more than that cut. So the Lights are running as many nodes as humanly possible in Survival, Agility, and Operations while still being lightly armed and overly hot.

They have some work to do. Not necessarily in the skill tree, either. Cut the MedLas down to 3.5 heat at least, and that's most of the work right there.

[dario03]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

They will be nerfed. Inferring from comments I've seen around here and in the PTS section, there has apparently been a metric truck-load of complaints over the Locust...even though it takes one shot from just about anything to either kill it or cripple it so badly that it has to play extra-scarce.

Yeah I know, I'm just really really hoping they change that for the live patch. Longshot I know.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

Yeah, there is that, but it applies only to the Survivability tree right now...which they cut in half from PTS2 to PTS3 and which will now require greater investment when it goes live to get more than that cut. So the Lights are running as many nodes as humanly possible in Survival, Agility, and Operations while still being lightly armed and overly hot.

They have some work to do. Not necessarily in the skill tree, either. Cut the MedLas down to 3.5 heat at least, and that's most of the work right there.

Well you brought up the second part that PGI did this. If you want your mech to run cooler because a lot of lights run hot (6 or more SPL will do that on a light) you now have an option either put your nodes into those tables survival agility and operations or save some and put them to cooling down your mech.

So if you want something what are you going to give up to get it? That is the bases of what PGI is doing to help drive diversity, which will work in parts because some people will choose something different than others. Then again there are other people who will wait for meta mechs to put up what they think the optimal build out for the skill tree should be and they will copy and paste it.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well you brought up the second part that PGI did this. If you want your mech to run cooler because a lot of lights run hot (6 or more SPL will do that on a light) you now have an option either put your nodes into those tables survival agility and operations or save some and put them to cooling down your mech.

So if you want something what are you going to give up to get it? That is the bases of what PGI is doing to help drive diversity, which will work in parts because some people will choose something different than others. Then again there are other people who will wait for meta mechs to put up what they think the optimal build out for the skill tree should be and they will copy and paste it.

No, you don't get it.

There is a performance deficit that Lights have but they have not ever been given a bone to make up for it. Every single time they start to be considered useful on their own merits, they have been pounded into the sand. So I should not have to be giving up anything for the Light 'Mech. I am already giving up a lot simply because I've chosen to take the Light.

Needing colder MedLas is also a universal performance deficit. Wouldn't need those near-universal 10% heat-gen quirks if MedLas weren't at least 10% too hot to begin with, now would we?

That's what PGI does not understand.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

No, you don't get it.

There is a performance deficit that Lights have but they have not ever been given a bone to make up for it. Every single time they start to be considered useful on their own merits, they have been pounded into the sand. So I should not have to be giving up anything for the Light 'Mech. I am already giving up a lot simply because I've chosen to take the Light.

Needing colder MedLas is also a universal performance deficit. Wouldn't need those near-universal 10% heat-gen quirks if MedLas weren't at least 10% too hot to begin with, now would we?

That's what PGI does not understand.

So what you are saying is because you chose to take a light you should be given something to compensate your choice?

That is like saying I choose not to work so the government should pay all my bills.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

So what you are saying is because you chose to take a light you should be given something to compensate your choice?

That is like saying I choose not to work so the government should pay all my bills.

No. What I'm saying is that the Light doesn't have as much utility given the way the game is designed. Which is to say, the game is designed around combat but the Light isn't very valuable at combat and there's no amount of piloting that changes this.

Are you intentionally being obtuse or, what?

[FupDup]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

So what you are saying is because you chose to take a light you should be given something to compensate your choice?

That is like saying I choose not to work so the government should pay all my bills.

You're still not getting it.

Lights, as they stand now (and for a long time actually), are not able to justify their own existence on the team without external "compensation" mechanisms (like quirks or special game limits). They don't have sufficient intrinsic strengths to counteract their intrinsic weaknesses.

It's ironic that you chose not working as a metaphor, because lights require harder work than any other type of mech. The only other mechs that come close to the level of effort required are super slow and clumsy assaults like the Dire Whale.

The lights are working harder but still can't pay the bills.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Queen of England]

Balancing mechs against each other should be done through quirks. Mechs should be balanced against each other at level 0 and level 91, not just when comparing level 91 mechs to each other.

[Clownwarlord]

You didn't understand what I was point out. If you think you need a crutch because you choose to pilot a light then why pilot a light mech? It is your choice.

A light mech shouldn't be able to carry the same load out of a 100 ton mech because well, simple it isn't a 100 ton mech if it is a light mech. It shouldn't have the armor of a 100 ton mech either, or the structure. What does a light mech get that a 100 ton mech doesn't have? Speed and agility.

To me you both sound as if you choose to play light mechs but you lost and blame it on the mech when really you should blame yourself for your choice.

Queen of England, on 12 March 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Balancing mechs against each other should be done through quirks. Mechs should be balanced against each other at level 0 and level 91, not just when comparing level 91 mechs to each other.

Balancing mechs across classes is pointless because clearly a 100 ton mech is going to be better at killing than a 20 ton mech purely based on the fact that a 100 ton mech can carry more weapons and make itself more efficient with heat. Anything done with the skill tree even giving a light mech the ability to take every node in every tree wont change that fact.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

You didn't understand what I was point out. If you think you need a crutch because you choose to pilot a light then why pilot a light mech? It is your choice.

~snip~

To me you both sound as if you choose to play light mechs but you lost and blame it on the mech when really you should blame yourself for your choice.

That's because you either have zero appreciation for how the game is set up or are legitimately ignorant.

Lights are in the game. Things that are in the game are not supposed to be there just to look pretty but otherwise be useless. I am not frustrated because I lost in a Light (in fact, if you look up my history you will see that I do far and away better in Lights than any other class...but practice will do that for you). I am frustrated because, when push comes to shove at the top end of play, Lights are only taken when rules require it and not because they are actually a desirable choice. For example, when I was in AS, I was ordered to play Firestarters, because Firestarters were better than Locusts. If the Locust is bad, why is it in the game? There is no trade-off there, it was just straight-up worse. Why should it stay worse?

Quote

A light mech shouldn't be able to carry the same load out of a 100 ton mech because well, simple it isn't a 100 ton mech if it is a light mech. It shouldn't have the armor of a 100 ton mech either, or the structure. What does a light mech get that a 100 ton mech doesn't have? Speed and agility.

I wasn't aware that six Medium lasers was the same load-out that a 100-ton 'Mech carries. I also wasn't aware that 24 points of CT armor was similar to a 100 tonner either, my mistake. I'll be sure to strip some firepower and armor off of my Boar's Head whenever I next decide to fire up the game, and I'll be sure to engage arm-lock and use a very tiny engine so I can't track any Lights...

Being a smart-*** aside, nobody is saying they should be equal to heavier 'Mechs in all facets. What we are saying is that the things they are good at are not enough to make them equal in usefulness as the heavier 'Mechs and so they need some extra help, wherever it comes from. My point is that what the Skill Tree provided last we saw it is not enough.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 March 2017 - 06:14 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Are you all just that bad at playing a light mech? A light mech has the best speed and agility than any other class (while there is some bridge over mechs). You know that going into your match why not just use that to your advantage? Instead what I see is that you would rather complain about your choice to take that mech because some assault mech touched you.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Are you all just that bad at playing a light mech? A light mech has the best speed and agility than any other class (while there is some bridge over mechs). You know that going into your match why not just use that to your advantage? Instead what I see is that you would rather complain about your choice to take that mech because some assault mech touched you.

Some of us play or have played at a higher level than you. And no, I'm not talking about T1 public matches or that nonsense.

You do not know what you are talking about at all.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

Some of us play or have played at a higher level than you. And no, I'm not talking about T1 public matches or that nonsense.

You do not know what you are talking about at all.

So you are saying that the game should be built around the competitive scene instead of the cash cow that is the majority of the community? Why do that when PGI will lose money?

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

So you are saying that the game should be built around the competitive scene instead of the cash cow that is the majority of the community? Why do that when PGI will lose money?

Trickle. Down. Balance. If it is balanced at the top, it is impossible, with zero hyperbole, to be imbalanced with less-skilled players. There can only be the perception of imbalance, but you can't tune any game's based on mere perception.

That they will lose money is complete supposition on your part.

[FupDup]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

So you are saying that the game should be built around the competitive scene instead of the cash cow that is the majority of the community? Why do that when PGI will lose money?

PGI could milk that cash cow a little bit harder if lights were more viable, because then they could actually release light mech packs regularly (which have been neglected for like 16+ mech packs until the Javelin) and thus tap in to a demographic that they are currently not getting cash from (light mech enthusiasts).

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Trickle. Down. Balance. If it is balanced at the top, it is impossible, with zero hyperbole, to be imbalanced with less-skilled players. There can only be the perception of imbalance, but you can't tune any game's based on mere perception.

That they will lose money is complete supposition on your part.

But the fact that competitive players goes out of their way to break the balance to get an edge on their opponent is apparently lost on you.

FupDup, on 12 March 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

PGI could milk that cash cow a little bit harder if lights were more viable, because then they could actually release light mech packs regularly (which have been neglected for like 16+ mech packs until the Javelin) and thus tap in to a demographic that they are currently not getting cash from (light mech enthusiasts).

Well if there is such an inferiority to piloting a light mech, then why are there light mech enthusiasts?

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Yeah, I am actually really surprised that PGI didn't use skill points or skill multipliers to balance 'Mechs. I thought that was the obvious no-brainer.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Yeah, I am actually really surprised that PGI didn't use skill points or skill multipliers to balance 'Mechs. I thought that was the obvious no-brainer.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

PGI
no-brainer.

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

So you are saying that the game should be built around the competitive scene instead of the cash cow that is the majority of the community? Why do that when PGI will lose money?

So... there's no point in taking Lights?

Like, if you're going to sell a Light mechpack (a rarity in itself), it's not profitable if a Light isn't even holding a candle to all the people that require a Streakboat to fight their battles for them. Mind you, Streakboats aren't always a great solution in comp level play either (if you can do it with other builds - which is usually more effective, then you're wasting a slot).

You can be totally ignorant about Lights, but the the MM doesn't lie about the Light queue... a queue that betrays itself (taking a Light actually takes just a long a wait as anything else).

[FupDup]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

But the fact that competitive players goes out of their way to break the balance to get an edge on their opponent is apparently lost on you.

They're not "breaking" the game. They don't have the ability to change the mechanics, statistics, or other values. They can discover things that are pre-existing, such as which mech is better than the other, but they cannot not alter the game files. It's not their fault that something is the best or worst choice.

[Mcgral18]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

You didn't understand what I was point out. If you think you need a crutch because you choose to pilot a light then why pilot a light mech? It is your choice.

Exactly, it's my choice to not pilot garbage

And that's exactly what I choose, shame about having pointless content in a game though, isn't it?

[FupDup]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 06:28 PM, said:

Well if there is such an inferiority to piloting a light mech, then why are there light mech enthusiasts?

Some people ride the fine line between sanity and madness.