53 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

You seem upset. What another one of your friends lose an account? Or you this time?

Lol, so not upset, hows life as number 2 suiting ya?

[Naglinator]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

You seem upset. What another one of your friends lose an account? Or you this time?

9000 posts!?!?! Jesus L Kerensky. Find a new hobby.

[Clownwarlord]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

But will they be spending money?

Yes, lots of people will stick around, max out the handful of meta-mechs that they can afford to max out and let the rest rot... OK, fine. But PGI doesn't make any money off of some guy who buys a KDK-3 with cbills and basically plays nothing else, ever, because that's all he needs to stomp "stupid whining PUGS" all day.

So, you're an average player looking at your mech garage March 21st. You can't afford to fully level-up most of your mechs given the current quoted prices. Some of them you like to swap builds on regularly - well now that'll cost you, so you're even less interested in leveling them past a few basic skills. Oh, and then a bunch of your mechs are now useless after the nerfs. Maybe you should sell them to fund the few mechs you still like. Maybe you shouldn't, because PGI could change everything - again - a month or two later. Maybe you could go off and play something else that feels more like a game and less like doing your taxes.

Where in all this "brilliant change to the game" is there any incentive for anyone to BUY anything after this goes live? Or, are we just going to assume everyone is so easily led astray that they'll just abandon 90% of their current mechs and gladly fork over the cash when PGI releases New Tech? If so, that's still not condoning the skill maze, but rather PGI's ability to milk whales and people's ability to forget the lessons of the recent past.

Will people spend money on this game, yes. Why because what if they come out tomorrow and said MAD CAT MK what ever comes out ... yeah how many people will but that just because of what it is? So yes people will buy mech packs its the nature of the game and how PGI makes their pay.

[oldradagast]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Will people spend money on this game, yes. Why because what if they come out tomorrow and said MAD CAT MK what ever comes out ... yeah how many people will but that just because of what it is? So yes people will buy mech packs its the nature of the game and how PGI makes their pay.

Perhaps, although that only works to a point.

Still, nothing in the skill maze supports people spending MORE money, and the de-leveling of mechs, nerfing of mechs, addig of a respec cost, and increase in the grind only serves to discourage spending.

But you are right in that some percentage of the community will buy whatever PGI produces, quality and balance be danged.

In the end, though, my point still stands regarding the nature of the skill maze discouraging new purchases. PGI's gamble is that people's inability to control their mech addiction and their nostalgia needs will allow them to look past that. Even if that turns out to be true, the skill maze is still a terrible system.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

So Sexbots, a full season lost to really boring West Wing in Space action, Robots with mommy issues... and a really limp finale?

(Sorry... loved the first season, was wholly unimpressed after).

I take your point, but again, what you may deem poorly written or expendable, another person may not, so who decides what stays? Again, things you find extraneous may be the very thing that drew someone else to it.

There are always going to be toes that get stepped on. There are quite a few toes getting stepped on with Star Wars right now, mine included, but sometimes crushed toes are necessary collateral to keep an IP alive and interesting. Often, people do not know what they want until you give it to them and I think that's just as applicable here as it is anywhere else.

Spoiler

As an aside, I don't disagree that BSG went kind of down-hill, though I would argue it was pretty strong until Season 2 ended. After that, they forgot that they needed to punctuate the fornication and personal drama with some military space action every now and then. There wasn't enough of the Galactica and Pegasus pounding the crap out of Base Stars, IMO.

[Johnny Z]

Carl Vickers, on 12 March 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Lol, so not upset, hows life as number 2 suiting ya?

I wouldn't know, but keep trying.

[Clownwarlord]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Perhaps, although that only works to a point.

Still, nothing in the skill maze supports people spending MORE money, and the de-leveling of mechs, nerfing of mechs, addig of a respec cost, and increase in the grind only serves to discourage spending.

But you are right in that some percentage of the community will buy whatever PGI produces, quality and balance be danged.

In the end, though, my point still stands regarding the nature of the skill maze discouraging new purchases. PGI's gamble is that people's inability to control their mech addiction and their nostalgia needs will allow them to look past that. Even if that turns out to be true, the skill maze is still a terrible system.

Well, while nothing in the skill tree causes people to spend money other than converting xp to gxp, but isn't that the same as the old skill tree as well. Nothing in it that causes people to spend real money other than converting xp to gxp.

As for Cbills you spend less on a per mech bases. Then comes XP you spend more yes but unlike the old skill tree you have a new weapons skills to purchase so you have to spend more to get some of them and keep what you had. In other words the only thing that really changes is you spend more xp to get more with the new skill tree (some of what you get will be a waste but so was the old skill tree with useless skills ... Pin Point anyone?).

If anything because PGI is moving away from a requirement of buying 3 mechs of the same chassis to master one now you might see more people buying single mechs with real cash than you did before when people had to buy the entire mech pack to get the mech they wanted.

[MechaBattler]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

I hope your not serious. No real player is making a big deal about this. Unless they are bored.

I am trying to decide if the big drama being made is to give the skill tree attention or to actually get players to quit.

I can look at objectively. I understand where people are coming from. I do think it's an overreaction the way some people have been acting. Especially in the face of PGI compromising for their sake. I'm not taking a side. Even if I'm finding it hard to sympathize with people who are probably not really going to get much use out of 2/3 of their 200+ hangers. But I understand they paid for and worked hard to master those mechs. It's only natural that they would be upset.

Edited by MechaBattler, 12 March 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

MechaBattler, on 12 March 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

I can look at objectively. I understand where people are coming from. I do think it's an overreaction the way some people have been acting. Especially in the face of PGI compromising for their sake. I'm not taking a side. Even if I'm finding it hard to sympathize with people who are probably not really going to get much use out of 2/3 of their 200+ hangers. But I understand they paid for and worked hard to master those mechs. It's only natural that they would be upset.

Remember you can only play one mech at a time, I can't even remember last time I piloted some of my mechs because I have over 200 + of them.

[MechaBattler]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Remember you can only play one mech at a time, I can't even remember last time I piloted some of my mechs because I have over 200 + of them.

Exactly, I only have 45 I think on this account. I'm probably maybe gonna use 12 of them across the next few months. Some of them are redundant like the Crabs. Some of them are just too under performing, like the Loyalty Wolverine. Though sometimes I'm in a mood to try to wring some fight out of it. So I might just master it anyway.

And at the same time. Having 200 mechs mastered is a feat of it's own. To have it suddenly be yanked away and told you have to remaster them. Well that makes sense that people would be upset. Not enough in my opinion to try to burn the forums down and turn a sub reddit upside down. (Robot Jox is awesome though.)

[orcrist86]

This community is genuinely filled with great people. Great people that often have axes to grind and who flip their **** over stuff, good and bad. I dunno, I don't get it. I don't need all the highs and lows like that stressing me out.

[oldradagast]

MechaBattler, on 12 March 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

And at the same time. Having 200 mechs mastered is a feat of it's own. To have it suddenly be yanked away and told you have to remaster them. Well that makes sense that people would be upset. Not enough in my opinion to try to burn the forums down and turn a sub reddit upside down. (Robot Jox is awesome though.)

Keep in mind that part of the frustration over this is that there is absolutely no reason to do what they are doing. I have yet to see a single reason why a respec cost is needed or why already mastered mechs can't be given 91 points to distribute freely under the new system other than "uh... grind is good and people are too rich in the game because everyone bought one of every module per mech and... yeah."

Those are not good reasons - that's just out of touch assumptions and an attempt to substitute grind with content. As others have said, a player having several billion dollars and XP in no way harms the game's "economy" since there isn't one. And there's no real evidence that players having lots of in-game money discourages them from spending real money on mech packs since, if that were true, PGI's income would have dried up years ago given how "terribly rich" they seem to think everyone is.

If these changes - mech de-leveling and respec costs HAD to be made or the game would die, that's one thing. But not a single reason worthy of anything more than contempt has been given so far. So, what's the point?

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 05:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

There are always going to be toes that get stepped on. There are quite a few toes getting stepped on with Star Wars right now, mine included, but sometimes crushed toes are necessary collateral to keep an IP alive and interesting. Often, people do not know what they want until you give it to them and I think that's just as applicable here as it is anywhere else.

Spoiler

As an aside, I don't disagree that BSG went kind of down-hill, though I would argue it was pretty strong until Season 2 ended. After that, they forgot that they needed to punctuate the fornication and personal drama with some military space action every now and then. There wasn't enough of the Galactica and Pegasus pounding the crap out of Base Stars, IMO.

So who becomes the curator and judge of which toes are OK to amputate, and which are not?

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

So who becomes the curator and judge of which toes are OK to amputate, and which are not?

Who died and made whoever is running the show over at Catalyst the current king?

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

Who died and made whoever is running the show over at Catalyst the current king?

the almighty ownership of the licensing rights?

You get that, feel free to lop off what you want. Just don't be too surprised if you lop off a huge percentage of the old time whales keeping it alive with all the other "extraneous" stuff.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 March 2017 - 05:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

the almighty ownership of the licensing rights?

The actual owners to the license are not the same as the people in charge of creative direction; the latter work for the former. Somebody in charge of creative direction has to pitch a reboot for the higher-ups to approve, but that somebody has to have an interest in the first place. So, ultimately, it's a question about having the right people in the right place and it will happen when it happens, if it happens at all.We get absolutely no input to the matter.

All that just so you understand where I am coming from when I say "random chance" to your original query about figuring out who gets to decide how to reinvent BT.

[Clownwarlord]

MechaBattler, on 12 March 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

Exactly, I only have 45 I think on this account. I'm probably maybe gonna use 12 of them across the next few months. Some of them are redundant like the Crabs. Some of them are just too under performing, like the Loyalty Wolverine. Though sometimes I'm in a mood to try to wring some fight out of it. So I might just master it anyway.

And at the same time. Having 200 mechs mastered is a feat of it's own. To have it suddenly be yanked away and told you have to remaster them. Well that makes sense that people would be upset. Not enough in my opinion to try to burn the forums down and turn a sub reddit upside down. (Robot Jox is awesome though.)

Something i have noticed is that on the old skill tree is that the new skill tree is expanding on it. So in other words and as an example there is a weapons skill tree and before there wasn't anything of the sort. So now we have more options and more to research than before, and this is where people will have to spend more because there is more.

Here I will use another game as an example.

Settlers Online use to only go up to level 50 and so when you reached it you didn't get anymore xp instead you got resources, but then about a year ago they changed it and made the system go to level 75 now. So now all the old players that had been level 50 have to work hard again and grind out to level 75 now.

As for MWO it kinda is the same as in the new skill tree is expanding on bonuses that you can add to your mech and so you now have to spend more xp to get it to the new bar of where mastering a mech is set. In some cases for those with a lot of mechs they will have the cbills and xp already because PGI let you keep those resources and it was up to you if you spent them on other things or converted them into other resources (xp to gxp with mc).

[Carl Vickers]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

As for MWO it kinda is the same as in the new skill tree is expanding on bonuses that you can add to your mech and so you now have to spend more xp to get it to the new bar of where mastering a mech is set. In some cases for those with a lot of mechs they will have the cbills and xp already because PGI let you keep those resources and it was up to you if you spent them on other things or converted them into other resources (xp to gxp with mc).

Shameless cash grab, not having anything to do with XP saved on a variant, covert to GXP with MC. Minimally viable setup.

Skill tree should have been here from the start of the game, now it is going to cost PGI players, meh.

[Clownwarlord]

Carl Vickers, on 12 March 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Shameless cash grab, not having anything to do with XP saved on a variant, covert to GXP with MC. Minimally viable setup.

Skill tree should have been here from the start of the game, now it is going to cost PGI players, meh.

How is it a cash grab? Old and new skill tree have nothing to do with spending real money. You spend cbills and xp. Yeah some of the mastering grind could be made easier with premium time but so will grinding out to buy the latest mech with cbills. So again how is that a cash grab when you can still do it for free?

[Mister Glitchdragon]

TLBFestus, on 12 March 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

This whole thing, in different incarnations, has been going on for years now. PGI steps into a big pile of horse apples and the community rages initially, but eventually the fires burn down and smolder, and the game continues to exist.

Because as I see it the community is whipped into a frenzy by a group of trolls who rage whenever PGI does ANYTHING. It's never about whatever's going on at the time. It's always some deeper wound. You let them go on long enough and they'll tell you all about how they're mad that info warfare didn't turn out the way they wanted, or that they didn't get to buy a Phoenix package, or that faction warfare doesn't include logistics the way they were promised. I'm not saying these aren't valid torts. I'm saying these usual suspects bite at any opportunity to set the community on fire, regardless of the situation.

We're finally getting a new skill tree! THAT'S AWESOME. If you are happy with the current skill tree, I think you're an idiot.

I'm sorry people with a 299 mechs will have to retool 299 trees. If you think that's a good reason to never do a new skill tree, I think you're an idiot.

I'm sorry PGI didn't reach out to you personally and adopt your proposal for a new skill tree, which is obviously the very best idea ever. Yes, I mean you. Every single one of you. That's roughly how many members of this community have the obviously best idea ever for a new skill tree. If you think that's a good reason to never do a new skill tree, I think you're an idiot.

The game continues to exist because after whatever the controversial new feature patches in and the community tries it, they realize that all the histronics were just that. All the people talking about quitting start talking about "taking a break," then start talking about how they'll still play, just "won't spend any more money" then finally they'll buy the next must-have down the pipe and return to being the mediocre black knight lacking the courage of their conviction, grousing around all salty on these forums, waiting for their next opportunity to stir it up.

Meanwhile, the rest of us come to the conclusion that even though the system PGI adopted isn't our own obviously best idea ever, its better than what we had.

We're not idiots, after all.

Edited by Mister Glitchdragon, 12 March 2017 - 06:01 PM.