369 replies to this topic

[Oogalook]

Man, I am really happy. I was looking forward to the new thing, too, but it's great to see so much thought going into this. After the repeated and unwarranted periods of panic at the beginnings of both Clan Invasion and the CW drop, we should know by now to chill and wait and see. I am gonna go buy an Ultimate Uzeil pack now.

[Oogalook]

Sorry to reproduce the below, but it is to a purpose.

Lord --name removed to protect privacy--, on 14 March 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

So PGI cowards continue to make excuses. What they have proven is that they will bow to the most pathetic whiner's, the most worthless attention getting ******** on the planet. I have lost all respect for the gutless losers at PGI. If you piece of **** morons actually let PGI put out the skill tree, let it have a chance to work and then gave your opinions like adults insteal 5 yr old children sucking their thumbs then maybe the game would be better but because its the pathetic losers that are being listened this game will become the crap that all of you are.

I want to point out that he language of the first two lines is identical to that of almost a third of the population of players who think this skill tree is the worst thing ever. This guy here is enraged over a small delay based on player feedback being taken into account. The Reddit groupthink is catatonic with misspent rage over a deliberate step forward which is being guided every moment by player feedback. The salty seas extend to both horizons. With defenders like this, PGI can't win, eh?

Getting people mad is quite different from giving feedback. Lets give feedback and then sit back for the ride. Geezums

[MrMagoo421]

Here's the thing. No-one I know will ever believe a release date this company puts forward again. Certainly none of us are going to pre-order things for the Civil War tech, why would we...we don't know if it will ever arrive.

I won't spend more money in the current system buying 3's for mechs when supposedly at some point in the future I'll only need one. I have several one's already waiting unused for the new system as it is. So really, this is a decision that is closing wallets. From what a few of my friends have said, that is permanently.

Our circles of players was worth a few hundred bucks a month. It will now be zero. Maybe if the skill system upgrade stops being vapor ware AND the Civil War content proves to not be vapor ware there will be a chance of those wallets opening again. As it stands though, the actions of this company over the last week are utterly insulting.

The ultimate was the 'we're not giving you the thing you've waited on with baited breath for months, now here's the pre-order form to buy new stuff'. Please......I have never been so insulted by a game company. That was height of poor taste. At least give us a week or two to morn the rug being pulled out from under us before holding your hands out begging for cash. It would still be poor form, but it wouldn't come off as so full of contempt for the paying customer.

[Jubblator]

MrMagoo421, on 15 March 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Here's the thing. No-one I know will ever believe a release date this company puts forward again. Certainly none of us are going to pre-order things for the Civil War tech, why would we...we don't know if it will ever arrive.

I won't spend more money in the current system buying 3's for mechs when supposedly at some point in the future I'll only need one. I have several one's already waiting unused for the new system as it is. So really, this is a decision that is closing wallets. From what a few of my friends have said, that is permanently.

Our circles of players was worth a few hundred bucks a month. It will now be zero. Maybe if the skill system upgrade stops being vapor ware AND the Civil War content proves to not be vapor ware there will be a chance of those wallets opening again. As it stands though, the actions of this company over the last week are utterly insulting.

The ultimate was the 'we're not giving you the thing you've waited on with baited breath for months, now here's the pre-order form to buy new stuff'. Please......I have never been so insulted by a game company. That was height of poor taste. At least give us a week or two to morn the rug being pulled out from under us before holding your hands out begging for cash. It would still be poor form, but it wouldn't come off as so full of contempt for the paying customer.

Im with you on that, know people that are to.
This completely blew my trust in PGI and i will not do any further investments into a stagnating product.
Gj thou, you made me sucker people into this game again with the skill tree on the horizon (as well as investing money into), so thanks for making me look like a ******* ****.
Next time dont set launch dates or keep them come hell or high water, this was thoroughly a unprofessional move.

[Korbos]

MrMagoo421, on 15 March 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Here's the thing. No-one I know will ever believe a release date this company puts forward again. Certainly none of us are going to pre-order things for the Civil War tech, why would we...we don't know if it will ever arrive.

I won't spend more money in the current system buying 3's for mechs when supposedly at some point in the future I'll only need one. I have several one's already waiting unused for the new system as it is. So really, this is a decision that is closing wallets. From what a few of my friends have said, that is permanently.

Our circles of players was worth a few hundred bucks a month. It will now be zero. Maybe if the skill system upgrade stops being vapor ware AND the Civil War content proves to not be vapor ware there will be a chance of those wallets opening again. As it stands though, the actions of this company over the last week are utterly insulting.

The ultimate was the 'we're not giving you the thing you've waited on with baited breath for months, now here's the pre-order form to buy new stuff'. Please......I have never been so insulted by a game company. That was height of poor taste. At least give us a week or two to morn the rug being pulled out from under us before holding your hands out begging for cash. It would still be poor form, but it wouldn't come off as so full of contempt for the paying customer.

Pretty much sums up how I and so many others feel.

[Venatos]

i can second that, had several friends excited about the new skilltree and the dreaded "rule of 3" finaly going away.
sure as hell noone gona preorder anything for "in a future patch someday, maybe".
didnt understand the insanity behind the rule of 3 on day 1, even less understand it today.

[Ryoken]

Sad to hear about the delay. Glad to hear further ways to improve the skill tree system were found.

Yet I hope those "improvements" are not just steps back to please the very "special needs" of a very loud fraction of players that inhibits crucial improvements to the game.

Mastering a single mech in the old skill tree system was done very easily once the "new player cumbering rule of three" was overcome and felt very little as achivement. At the same time there was no real use of all the excess XP after reaching master level, besides transforming them into GXP by MC which I always deemed a waste of MC.

So maybe with the further improvements to the skill tree system this can be adressed to.

Also as mentioned above the new skill tree master level is higher in value than the old skill tree master level, which is a good thing to me as we can put more effort into a single mech and at the same time got more options. Yet this means that translating old master levels straight into new master levels would be a disproportionate overcompensation.

To me the ideal improvements to be addressed are :
- counter weapon boating encourage mechs with mixed range setups (Maybe weapon synergy so if your mech features long and short range weapons both get a bonus they would not get without each other!)
- let us put more effort into each single mech to access more options and variability to switch in between to support different builds/loadouts
- give XP gathered after mastering a mech a purpose! The option to transform them into GXP with MC is good but can't be the final word regarding those huge amount of excess XP some favourite chassis gather. We need other options here.
- give us a no lock on direct firing mode for LRMs and separate it from the indirect lock on one
- fair translation of old to new skill tree (see Kanajashis vid 4mins34sec below for a possible approach)

Edited by Ryoken, 15 March 2017 - 09:56 AM.

[MGEEZ]

Ryoken, on 15 March 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

Also as mentioned above the new skill tree master level is higher in value than the old skill tree master level, which is a good thing to me as we can put more effort into a single mech and at the same time got more options. Yet this means that translating old master levels straight into new master levels would be a disproportionate overcompensation.

I disagree. The value is coming from the quirks, modules and old skill tree being combined with some values being changed. Players shouldn't be penalized to remaster mechs they already spent hours playing to mastering because the benefits of mastery change. Why should they?

Will an overgenerous refund hurt the game? No.
Will an undergenrous refund hurt the game? Absolutely

I agree with you on the need for some changes to the game, but not with the progress toward the new mastery bonuses. An ungenerous refund will cause paying customers to leave.

[Ryoken]

MGEEZ, on 15 March 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

I disagree. The value is coming from the quirks, modules and old skill tree being combined with some values being changed. Players shouldn't be penalized to remaster mechs they already spent hours playing to mastering because the benefits of mastery change. Why should they?

Will an overgenerous refund hurt the game? No.
Will an undergenrous refund hurt the game? Absolutely

I agree with you on the need for some changes to the game, but not with the progress toward the new mastery bonuses. An ungenerous refund will cause paying customers to leave.

So by having the equivalent of 45 nodes in the old system to get the very same bonuses back in the new system you will not loose anything.

But you won't deserve to get the full 91 nodes because you never had that level to beginn with.

It's okay to ask to keep your progress - totally fine with that.

But it's unjustified to ask for the double of what you got just because PGI is expanding the tech tree.

[James Argent]

I have a good number of single mechs I'd like to work on and there are a few others of which I might want to pick up a single variant, and I would heartily agree with immediately rescinding the rule of three if it is just an existing code switch to be flipped. But if it requires extensive work to isolate it from the Skill Tree code, I'd prefer to wait. Let's not forget, the reason the Skill Tree PTS is over is to allow the PTS testing of NEW CONTENT to remain on schedule.

As for the modules refund, the whole idea behind them was that you wouldn't have to purchase one for each of your mechs. People shouldn't be penalized for using modules as they are intended, as PGI TOLD them to do, just because others decided that their own convenience was worth it to them to buy a crapload of them. If the game had a better way to hot-swap them, most of those people wouldn't have spent the extra C-Bills either. PGI is committing to being fair to both, and that's about as good as it can get.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Ryoken, on 15 March 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So by having the equivalent of 45 nodes in the old system to get the very same bonuses back in the new system you will not loose anything.

But you won't deserve to get the full 91 nodes because you never had that level to beginn with.

It's okay to ask to keep your progress - totally fine with that.

But it's unjustified to ask for the double of what you got just because PGI is expanding the tech tree.

Most people complaining about the new tree are not viewing things from this logical perspective. They are viewing the old and new trees as 1:1 equivalents, and so X% progress in one tree should equal X% progress in the other tree. It's the completionists who view the world digitally that caused the delay.

[Haujob]

InnerSphereNews, on 13 March 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

Whether you own a hundred Modules or none, there will be no lost progress in the relative Skill statuses of your ‘Mechs. The work you’ve already put in to achieve Mastery, or any other degree of Skill status under the current system, will carry over into an equal capacity for acquiring any desired Skills under the new Skill Tree.

Hang on, wait.
Now, I never follow any of this closely but what made ANYONE think that anything else but this solution would be an acceptable decision? What's an argument to NOT do it like this?

[Cpt Zaepp]

#NoRespeccCosts

[MGEEZ]

Ryoken, on 15 March 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So by having the equivalent of 45 nodes in the old system to get the very same bonuses back in the new system you will not loose anything.

But you won't deserve to get the full 91 nodes because you never had that level to beginn with.

It's okay to ask to keep your progress - totally fine with that.

But it's unjustified to ask for the double of what you got just because PGI is expanding the tech tree.

It's 45 ST nodes just for equal old mastery skills. That doesn't include the Module or weapon module bonuses which you now have to buy for every mech or the Quirks from the mechs themselves.

Edited by MGEEZ, 15 March 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[metallio]

Prosperity Park, on 15 March 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Most people complaining about the new tree are not viewing things from this logical perspective. They are viewing the old and new trees as 1:1 equivalents, and so X% progress in one tree should equal X% progress in the other tree. It's the completionists who view the world digitally that caused the delay.

I disagree totally. I'm not even one of those people, but it's not logic if perspective changes the answer, so the conclusion is invalid from a "logical" standpoint. Maybe you're right, but that ain't logic.

People have a stable of mechs they beat themselves up to make playable. They want to play those mechs now and then. Once this goes through those mechs that aren't at 91 nodes aren't able to compete, so they're not "playable" until you sink a ton of time in, years in some cases. This when you've already put YEARS into the game making it so you can say "screw it, I want to play a Commando D today" and just grab your mech and go. What, it's not meta so it doesn't matter? I like my Dragon Slayer however much it sucks. Putting it behind the potential curve does what to help the game? Anything? Because it sure doesn't sound like it does so why not give the mastered mechs 91 nodes? Is it really going to hurt that my LRM locust has a few more nodes on it? What about my P-hawks that everyone loves to hate on? Or Dragons? If those suddenly become meta after the skill tree is it going to kill PGI or the game that people who've had them mastered for YEARS are able to play them right away at max capacity?

None of this would matter if the grind on this game wasn't a heaping pile of horse dookie that they're making infinitely worse and making modifications ridiculously expensive. If it took me five minutes to make the cbills and xp it wouldn't matter...much. It'd still be frikkin' insulting or at least irritating to no end.

You don't have to be some mongoloid with extra chromosomes to think there's a point to just putting the mechs who are maxxed out at a maxxed out level when you change things up. It's a decision PGI gets to make, just like the players get to decide if they want to deal with it.

[Joe Ego]

Here are a couple suggestions to reduce clicks in the skill tree UI. They can be used together or individually.

Path selections.
This feature enables quicker selection, especially for players targeting specific nodes deep in the trees. This is used when players select a node that is not linked to any already selected nodes.

• Set a path through the skill tree with the start point at the head/first node. The player selects an end node that can be on the outer edge, somewhere in the middle, or anywhere.
  
• The UI highlights a middle or most direct path. The UI shows a cost total for all highlighted nodes.
  
• The player can choose a different path through the tree by a. arrow key up or down OR b. mouse wheel up or down.
  
• The furthest paths to either direction (up or down) include only one 120 degree "turn", but include all possible path variations in between which the player can scroll through. The path described in #2 would be at or near the middle path between the furthest paths.
  
• The UI shows a cost total for all highlighted nodes as the initial path is displayed and the player scrolls through different path choices. Near the cost display is an option to pay for the nodes on the selected path or cancel the selection. Default payment is in mech XP with the option to use GXP. Nice to have: a method for the player to split the cost of the selected nodes between XP and GXP by a slider or similar with step values based on all combinations of the selected node prices.

Facilitate saving configurations.
This feature caters to experienced players and power users. It enables fan-created content for skill tree experimentation to be translated directly into the game. It makes experimentation easier by giving players a method to revert to a favorite configuration.

• Enable the skill tree UI to export and import strings that describe a particular selection of nodes. This should be done on a tree-by-tree basis.
  
• The game should generate a unique GUID/alphanumeric/whatever string for any possible configuration of nodes in a tree.
  
• The tree UI should have an "Export" button that displays the configuration string in a way that the player can copy it for later pasting into a local application, pastebin, whatever. This could instead be a "Copy" button that places the string into the player's clipboard directly.
  
• The tree UI should have an "Import" button that takes a string input and highlights the selected nodes.
  
• The import function temporarily replaces the current tree selections with the results of the string import.
  
• The player has the opportunity to change the node selections.
  
• The player as to approve the node selections and payment. The cost and payment UI can be similar to #5 described previously.
  
• Nice to have: a way to store node configurations within the game client as presets. It would still be nice to facilitate players saving and applying their own configurations, even by reading or changing files in their local file system.
  
• Nice to have: a way to handle versioning after updates to the skill tree structure so that imports of older configuration files produce useful results.

Feature suggestion unrelated to the skill tree: Facilitate offline saving and editing of mech configurations.

• Enable a string import/export, similar to what is describe above, but for mech loadouts.
  
• Something similar to what is seen at smurfy-net where a portion of the URL describes the specific loadout.
  
• Example with a smurfy URL: allow the player to import the string "3a151f740a5ce5f4c1691b6e06ac38ca9ffa3323" that puts a particular loadout into effect on a Mad Dog. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ac38ca9ffa3323

Edited by Joe Ego, 15 March 2017 - 10:18 PM.

[xXJ35T3RXx]

I'd much rather have a new system that isn't perfect rather than a mindless system that forces me to buy three variants of the same 'mech in order to be able to master just one - say whaaaa?! So what you're telling me is that if this were real life in order for me to master driving a mustang - I'd have to buy 3 of them from a dealership. WHAT version of the MCU does this make sense??? Bravo to all you snowflake shills who killed this new system - the very same ones who said they were leaving or not going to play mwo anymore because nothing had changed in four years. Here is from I can tell the second major change, other than tech or timeline, that's come around and you poo poo it like spoiled brats. You hide behind reddit in your gaggle of self loathing and immaturity - yes I've seen your youtube videos with your attention seeking behavior. Bravo to you all.

[Baron Zen]

The only thing i really would like to know atm is if the rule of three will stay or not, just for to plan accordingly how to grind the xp (splitted on 3 mechs or just in one).

[K O N D O]

Ryoken, on 15 March 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So by having the equivalent of 45 nodes in the old system to get the very same bonuses back in the new system you will not loose anything.

But you won't deserve to get the full 91 nodes because you never had that level to beginn with.

It's okay to ask to keep your progress - totally fine with that.

But it's unjustified to ask for the double of what you got just because PGI is expanding the tech tree.

MGEEZ, on 15 March 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

It's 45 ST nodes just for equal old mastery skills. That doesn't include the Module or weapon module bonuses which you now have to buy for every mech or the Quirks from the mechs themselves.

Ryoken is correct MGEEZ.

If a mech is mastered in the old system, it simply gives you the option to add more modules. This option costs 21,500XP to get an extra module slot. It does not give you any extra skills or the modules themselves.
The skills come from unlocking basic and elite, then if you wish to fit mech or weapon modules, you can do so but at a huge cost. Most people fit 6-12 million CB worth of modules. Some people fit none.

From all the tests I have done and others probably have done, it takes approximately 45 nodes to unlock the same Basic and Elite skills. To be honest, it actually takes 50 nodes but that includes some extra skills that you have to pass through to get the Basic/Elite equivalents.
In the new system, it actually takes only 57 nodes to unlock all Basic, Elite, and get Seismic.
So in reality, it you purchased a brand new mech for 9 Mil CB and that was the only variant you liked, in the new system to get it viable it would cost you:
1 x Mech variant cost = 9,000,000
57 x 800XP = 45,600XP
57 x 45,000CB = 2,025,000 CB

In the old system you would have to purchase 3 variants, grind the basics on all 3, then grind the Elite on the 1 variant you liked, and then pay 6Mil CB for Seismic. So the old system cost would be:
3 x Mech = 27,000,000 CB
1 x Seismic Sensor (x1 cost) = 6,000,000 CB + 30,000XP
3 x Basic Skills = 42,750 XP
1 x Elite Skills = 21,500 XP

Quite a bit cheaper in the new skill tree system hey?

The only issue with comparing old and new in regards to modules, is most people swap module. Therefore the CB and XP used to purchase these would normally be spread over all variants owned in the old system.
The new system doesn't let you swap modules, but as you can see the cost to put a Seismic module on a single mech in the new system cost approximately 2 - 4 faction warfare games. That is it!!!
The XP grind is also very close per mech.

The thing PGI needs to work out for themselves is:
- How many nodes equals the basic/elite skills?
- automatically unlock that particular number of nodes (at zero CB cost) on each variant that has skills unlocked based on what basic or elite skills have been unlocked.
- if they come up with 45 nodes like I did, it is pretty easy to refund current mech skills progress using a node allocation method.

I cover it all in the below post.

https://mwomercs.com...d-and-proposal/

Edited by K O N D O, 16 March 2017 - 01:51 AM.

[D V Devnull]

Just an extra post regarding the Upcoming Monthly Patch (2017-03[March]-21), albeit my mind slipped for a few days from overload... If PGI decreases the LRM BaseLine in the Live MWO Servers from 1000 to 900, there will be no end to my rage. Keep in mind, I'm not Super-LRM-Crazy myself, but it would grant too much of an advantage to Ballistic-Boaters and Energy-Boaters. Further, PGI would both hurt their opportunity to insert MRMs, and cause the LRM Range Modules (and by translation to the 'New Skill Tree', LRM-affecting Range Nodes) to become far too mandatory, which would cause further major unbalancing to gameplay. On top of that, Missile-type weaponry explodes without doing damage once it reaches the maximum range, therefore requiring that it's allowed a greater useful distance to travel. Need a rundown on info? Look at this...

-->> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/246670-would-you-keep-playing-if-pts2-went-live/page__view__findpost__p__5643685

...and please don't give me an extra headache. I've already had one in the last 24 hours.

~Mr. D. V. "Figured I should squeeze that note in there, before it slips by..." Devnull




[Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 16 March 2017 - 05:00 AM.