236 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Almond Brown, on 17 March 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

I will let your ignorance about my playing the game slide, this one time. I would almost believe what you say to be true if I did not know from 5 years of reading this Forum and playing MWO that many of the "dissenters" would have to take their fingers out of their ears and stop chanting NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA to ever have heard what PGI actually ever said.

If the Arm-Chair Developers would just sit the **** down once and while and let the real Dev do something new, anything FFS, maybe MWO could grow and become more. But, no that would dbe out of character for them. One has to keep appearances that is for sure.

For years the "WHINERS" spout on about the "lack of GD" everything in MWO. Then when "anything" new gets proposed, those same folks jump up and down crying foul.

It has gotten tiresome really and if anyone is killing MWO it is its own GD community of "Concerned Armchair Developers". Anyone who prefers stagnation in their games should go build their own F'ing game and let them stagnate and let PGI to actually build MWO like the real player base seems to want.

The Taint around here is so bad, it is likely to never recover. To bad really as MWO did have more potential left. Alas, Anti-Social Media seems to be winning more and more. As the OP stated. Well done to the A-SM crowd.

Sorry, I can't let this go.

If you were actually paying attention to what happened and why things happened, the forums wouldn't really be like this.

When history is reinforcing what I'm saying... whether it is balance or action/inaction, then the onus on PGI to actually address the problem... not pretend otherwise.

You're complaining to complain, and not putting into context PGI's track record to reality. That is your problem.

Sorry, blaming people that give a damn and showing PGI's track record on things they have and have not done is only way to bring attention to reality... not people who armchair develop PGI's "ideal" track record (as in, ignore all the stuff they've screwed up) and pretend "it's all going to get better" when reality and history has shown otherwise.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Sorry, I can't let this go.

If you were actually paying attention to what happened and why things happened, the forums wouldn't really be like this.

When history is reinforcing what I'm saying... whether it is balance or action/inaction, then the onus on PGI to actually address the problem... not pretend otherwise.

You're complaining to complain, and not putting into context PGI's track record to reality. That is your problem.

Sorry, blaming people that give a damn and showing PGI's track record on things they have and have not done is only way to bring attention to reality... not people who armchair develop PGI's "ideal" track record (as in, ignore all the stuff they've screwed up) and pretend "it's all going to get better" when reality and history has shown otherwise.

as you say, I'm pretty tired of PGI's trackrecord... all around, at the same time, I'm held captive by this IP and the fact they have it.

I haven't played, since I ran out of premium a few days ago, and I likely won't play, until the skill tree comes in. I'll still be here, on the forums, but my desire to play is literally 0 right now.

[R Valentine]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Sorry, I can't let this go.

If you were actually paying attention to what happened and why things happened, the forums wouldn't really be like this.

When history is reinforcing what I'm saying... whether it is balance or action/inaction, then the onus on PGI to actually address the problem... not pretend otherwise.

You're complaining to complain, and not putting into context PGI's track record to reality. That is your problem.

Sorry, blaming people that give a damn and showing PGI's track record on things they have and have not done is only way to bring attention to reality... not people who armchair develop PGI's "ideal" track record (as in, ignore all the stuff they've screwed up) and pretend "it's all going to get better" when reality and history has shown otherwise.

Pretty much what he said. PGI's track record for releasing broken garbage and leaving it broken is just as bad, if not worse, than their track record for scrapping ideas entirely. It makes no sense to blame "arm chair developers" when the real devs are the ones making poor decisions left and right and butchering any good ideas the arm chair guys come up with. Everything comes back to PGI, at the end, and to think otherwise is absolute stupidity.

[Weeny Machine]

RussianWolf, on 17 March 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Oh please, Uber Tier 1 Ninja, please explain how radar signature is important given that you can visually see the smallest light mech on the other side of the map with no issues?

I'm a decent player, I claim no elite skills. But I'm not buying what you are selling.

I wasn't saying that. But reading what you wrote, I was listening to an Über-god explaining things to me

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Problem: Then where is the monitization.

This isn't a "buy the game and you're done" game, it's a F2P game, and is thus beholden to the business model.

This doesn't mean squat. Just because you give away some freebies doesn't stop people from buying things, otherwise they wouldn't do events. This is also ignoring that plenty of "buy the game and you're done" games are a thing of the past, as plenty like CS:GO and Overwatch rely heavily on microtransactions to stay afloat despite having to buy to even play the game.

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

every modern shooter has it with the exception fo ArmA, but even games like DayZ are working towards such systems, such as crafting progressions and inherent character bonuses and the like.

So what about Overwatch and CS:GO, since I brought the up earlier, they don't have progression systems either? Sorry, but just because some of them have it doesn't mean all of them need or should have it. In fact most of those I HATE playing because if you are late to the party and missing out on those progressions the new player experience is HORRIBLE. We should avoid that AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE given how bad the NPE already is.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Dodger79, on 17 March 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

I think his point is as followed: with most weapons you can shoot at what you see and you just need a visual "detection" (read: see it) to know where someone is going, the red "radar detection dorito" is not neccessary for both. So radar signatures are not _that_ important.

When you play a light mech, a lower detection range or delay would help you much. Why? They wouldn't see your general direction before you attack. Even when you use cover, sometimes there is a gap and a red dot will appear. Also, when you are attack a target and everyone sees the blip it is MUCH more likely that the target will receiver support (I am refering to QP) / receiver support earlier than without the red blip. Therefore you totally understimate the radar blip. That's also one of the reasons why ECM is so liked

[Michael Kail]

The OP's rant, removing the pointless sarcasm, is ill-founded and undeserved in my opinion.

A good company tries to satisfy as many customers as possible. Not every decision is going to please everyone, so a wise company gets feedback and acts on it. In short, they have more customers than those of us who are demanding the new skill tree to be produced immediately post haste.

I am ALL FOR the new skill tree. But as others have said, I don't want it to be rushed or buggy. Think about going through all the trouble of setting up your skills in three dozen mechs just to have to do it all over again because of errors or problems.

It's a HUGE step. I don't want PGI to stumble. Caution is wise.

Remember MySpace? FaceBook took advantage as MySpace collapsed. They collapsed because, in part, of major changes to their look and their interface. The redesign was rushed and done with little feedback. They paid the price.

[Sjorpha]

This apologist narrative that players are "forcing" PGI to do anything is completely ridiculous.

Bad work gets negative feedback. When PGI proposes badly designed, halfbaked or downright broken changes people are going to voice concerns about them.

Some will do it reasonably, and some will throw fits.The population has all sorts of ages and psyches in it. Because this is a tacky fantasy robot game with a target group all the way from 8 year old kids up to nostalgic old geezers and it just creates a lot of variance in the feedback quality.

It is entirely up to PGI to sort out feedback and decide what to do next. As an example IW had one hugely impopular feature in the ghost range and the first PST was a ridiculous unplayable mess, but the concept of sensor profiles and info quirks was rather well recived. Now instead of just fixing the mess and removing the ghost range PGI gave up and scrapped it. No one else made that decision, they did.

It's the same thing now. They release a mess, get bad feedback, and instead of fixing the problems they just give up. No one else is responsible for that kind of cowardice and incompetence. It's 100% one them.

Your ability to understand and process feedback into improving your work is the key skill in any creative business. You need to deal with feedback of different quality. You never blame the critics, because your critics aren't responsible for the quality of your product, you are. Never be attached to your work, because that makes you blind and too proud to see your own mistakes. Never try to place the blame of your failures outside of yourself. Listen, adapt, learn, improve, remake.

Negative feedback is actually much more useful in general than positive feedback. PGI should be happy that so many people care so much about their game.

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 March 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bush Hopper, on 17 March 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

When you play a light mech, a lower detection range or delay would help you much. Why? They wouldn't see your general direction before you attack. Even when you use cover, sometimes there is a gap and a red dot will appear. Also, when you are attack a target and everyone sees the blip it is MUCH more likely that the target will receiver support (I am refering to QP) / receiver support earlier than without the red blip. Therefore you totally understimate the radar blip. That's also one of the reasons why ECM is so liked

People using their eyes tends to be more reliable than solely relying on automated-radar detection.

ECM at even the highest levels is only as effective as the people using it and the opponent's awareness level. It doesn't stop intelligent players from getting their shots nor bad players from giving themselves away thinking they can wander in the open.

I'm not saying it wouldn't affect the PUG queues, but depending on your level of understanding the game, it would only shift it further from those that pay attention vs those that don't know any better.

[Phoolan Devi]

Deathlike, on 14 March 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Just so you know...

At no time I saw the Community Manager in any part of this process. Maybe she was telling Russ all the things we were saying... except yet this was plan was going to go through regardless of our feedback until the whines went up to 11.

I dunno about you, but as a business... if you're ignoring feedback at a massive enough level until enough whining happens... there's a pretty good chance the original plan was a bad idea in the first place. Maybe that just sounds too damn obvious.

I want a new skill tree, but not the one PGI was going to bring onto us.

So, you are saying that if those players that were fine with the latest skill tree would whine enough and threaten with mass flight, PGI would reverse its delay of the skill tree? Mnnnhhhhh......it might be worth the try!

[Phoolan Devi]

oldradagast, on 14 March 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

Ah, whining about whining - the highlight of these forums!

We've been over the facts regarding the skill maze's failures, but I'm going to single out the opening line of your sad, insulting rant for special attention.

Yes, we "got PGI to cowtail to us - the GAME'S CUSTOMERS!"

Oh, the horror - a company having to listen to its customer base instead of just make crud up that pisses them off! Seriously, do you even understand how business works, or do you honestly think PGI should have cowtailed to YOU and just pissed everyone else off? Unreal!

You are not everybody! You were just loud at whinig....and yes.....complaining at unjustified whining is justified ; )

[Kaveli]

I really wanted the skill tree too but then they announced the civil war update and then I was like Ooooooooooooooooo.......... yea...... glad they waited. imagine having to do all your favorite mechs skills, then in july having to do them again because they added a bunch of new weapons and features?
I wanted it. I felt it was ready for prime time. However, with the major Civil war update, they probably are better off releasing it with all the new tech.

[Shifty McSwift]

Kaveli, on 18 March 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

imagine having to do all your favorite mechs skills, then in july having to do them again because they added a bunch of new weapons and features?

I am imagining it, and all the times this is going to happen again in the future again beyond the civil war patch, and considering it versus the stated changes to the refunding spent points system, and I still come up with no real concern about that. In fact it would have been BETTER to do the civil war update afterwards, as people would have spent a good deal of their refunds by that stage, and it would encourage actually gaming on to get the civil war goodies one might desire.

[Weeny Machine]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

People using their eyes tends to be more reliable than solely relying on automated-radar detection.

ECM at even the highest levels is only as effective as the people using it and the opponent's awareness level. It doesn't stop intelligent players from getting their shots nor bad players from giving themselves away thinking they can wander in the open.

I'm not saying it wouldn't affect the PUG queues, but depending on your level of understanding the game, it would only shift it further from those that pay attention vs those that don't know any better.

Then we agree to disagree. The last thing I want to point out is 1. there is a reason why ECM is so sought after 2. especially light mechs live considerably longer with ECM (or why do you think the ACH is so successful. It is not just their size because their speed suck compared to 35ts)

[FreeFragUK]

Personally I can't wait to see the new skill tree but in the same breath I'd like to see PGI take their time with it and get it right, granted they'll never get it right first time round as it'll inevitably require a lot of balancing and adjustments once it hits live servers. What will matter is PGI's capability to address major issues in an effective and urgent manner in order to minimise any potential collateral damage.

I don't envy PGI... the system is well established and changes on this level will shake the game to the core and inevitably this will come with a lot upset as it'll take people away from their comfort zone but personally I'd argue that PGI need to take action to try and draw customers back to the game but as many will admit, it will take more than a fresh skill tree.

One of the biggest grievances with this game from very early on has been the 3 Mech rule for development of skills. The idea of the new skill trees is a great idea in my opinion as it will allow players to tailor their mechs to suit their play-style and needs to a much greater extent. Theoretically it should also allow organised group to develop builds allowing for better unit cohesion.

People need to keep an open mind when it comes to changes, something which is often lost but on the reverse side of the coin many people here have sunk a lot of time, and in some cases a lot of money, into MWO and it's a game which draws an incredibly passionate audience. Tempers flare and people will argue to the high heavens as every player has a stake in MWO, this reaction is natural. What people need to do is learn to take a step back and take a minute to process what's in front of them as knee jerk reactions are rarely a productive response.

I appreciate the OP's sentiment, it is a disappointing move by PGI but hopefully it's simply a delay to allow them more time to get it right.

I won't lie, I have concerns about these changes as any player should but surely shaking things up a little from time to time isn't the end of the world, as stagnation is never a good thing.


I'd just like to apologise if this comes across as off-topic but I wanted to try and represent both sides while addressing what is increasingly appearing to be a toxic community. The attitude of the community is a huge factor when it comes to drawing in players with online games and at present there is a lot of hate, toxicity and elitism.

Edited by FreeFragUK, 18 March 2017 - 04:07 AM.

[Deathlike]

Bush Hopper, on 18 March 2017 - 03:21 AM, said:

Then we agree to disagree. The last thing I want to point out is 1. there is a reason why ECM is so sought after 2. especially light mechs live considerably longer with ECM (or why do you think the ACH is so successful. It is not just their size because their speed suck compared to 35ts)

ACH is a 30 tonner.

I'm not saying ECM isn't a thing, but in the grand scheme of things... even a split/half second of someone not noticing you is beneficial. However, the closer you are to a target, that ECM isn't going to magically save you.

[Michael Kail]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

People using their eyes tends to be more reliable than solely relying on automated-radar detection.

Every pilot needs one piece of equipment and cannot fight without it.

...the Mark I Eyeball...