32 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Remember a time before quirks and modules and Clans?

Pepperidge Farm remembers....

[El Bandito]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

Fine, I'm a bad example, and I said I'd be fine under the last iteration with less expensive unlocks. Let's look at a new player that hasn't yet spent one real world cent on MWO but has played a fair amount. They have 4 mechs in 4 mechbays, maybe a few more because they tried FW. All 4 of their mechs are mastered, but they haven't saved enough cbills for modules yet because they need to buy engines, endo/ferro/dhs, 3 chassies (and lost 50% of their cbills on resale), etc. Under the new system, they receive a 0 cbill refund and can unlock exactly 0 skill points while losing all of their bonuses from the old pilot tree. The whales just bought all of their skills back while the new players are now staring at a new cbill sink to scratch their way back up Mt. Tryhard. That would absolutely crush every single new player to MWO to be forced into such a disadvantage for so long and borders on PTW.

1. As I said in the first part of my post that you had conveniently left out, in the new skill tree it requires merely 4.1 million C-Bills to get 12 million worth of modules AND more.

2. If a player has no modules on his CW mech, then he already has no business to be in CW matches in the first place. Fully elited/mastered mechs with modules, or you are gimping your team.

[Almond Brown]

Coolant, on 14 March 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

skill tree is dead, probably won't see any progress till the end of the year at best...have to say I'm very disappointed. We could've had the skill tree as something to look forward to this month, now we have nothing. The Skill Tree could've gone thru fixes and updates till it looked more like what players wanted.

LOL! Nope. Not around here. It is all "my way" or "no way". Why would the "community" ever give even a millimeter when they despise PGI and the Dev so much that said Dev had to make them their own "special" Island just to appease their needs and wants. This is just another example of those who would kill the golden goose to get one EGG for themselves.

[Alan Davion]

Erikwa Kell, on 14 March 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

please STFU and let Russ fix the game the way he wants.

Yeah, you see, the problem with that is the only people who have any idea what Russ wants are the guys from NGNG and the super-secret-cabal of top-level-ultra-comp-meta-humpers who are nothing but glorified YES MEN who have Russ convinced that all his ideas are gold.

When the real players get involved, the people who know the game mechanics better than even PGI themselves sometimes, come along and see what PGI is trying to shovel down our throats, a lot of which would actually further screw up overall game balance, they feel honor bound to tell PGI that they're going to royally f*** things up.

Because they are loyal customers who want the game to survive, THRIVE even. But PGI seems literally HELL BENT on sabotaging themselves everytime they try to change something because they seem to think everything they do has to be DA BEST THANG EVAH~!

I don't know how long some of these people have been trying to tell PGI that big, huge patches every month that are chock full of grand, sweeping changes only serve to break more things than they fix.

They keep wielding a cudgel when they should be wielding a scalpel.

Edited by Alan Davion, 14 March 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[1453 R]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

...
The economy as it was was developed for whales, not new players. Without new players this game dies. This is THE real gamebreaking issue, not the lack of hard choices or depth or things being interesting, but disenfranchising new players and making the game not accessible to a beginner. I do agree that the tree could be a lot better, but it was mostly functional and better than the old tree with unlocks that did absolutely nothing. The economy would absolutely ruin the game for new players and the space poor.

The economy doesn't matter for really, truly new players, because they start at the bottom of Mt. Tryhard anyways. They will always be disadvantaged, and the new system meant they'd gain rather than lose simply because they spend their money on one 'Mech, and then can skill that one 'Mech instead of also needing to duplicate their investment twice over for maximum gain.

The retention of Rule of 3 hurts new players and the NPE economy a whole helluva lot more than anything the Skilltree could throw at them does. Cheap players like me who only ever elited 'Mechs, very rarely bothered with master module slots, and got by on a handful of modules kept on specific special favorites or swapped around as needed are the ones taking it in the exhaust ports hardest with the proposed economy, not new players.

The economy. Does. Not. MATTER.. Only the long-term viability of the system, and I'd argue that even the Skill Swamp is an improvement over Rule of 3 and the basic/elite/master junk tiers. Alas, we'll never get to properly find out.

Edited by 1453 R, 14 March 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 March 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

And here you have the problem, IM NOT WILLING TO COMPROMISE ON THIS.

I want to be 3/3rds less screwed, anything less is unacceptable, and thus why they are going back and looking into this.

Compromise is hard. Do you have an idea that is very close to the current system that offers a cbill sink for the whales while at the same time not screwing over new players?

El Bandito, on 14 March 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

1. As I said in the first part of my post that you had conveniently left out, in the new skill tree it requires merely 4.1 million C-Bills to get 12 million worth of modules AND more.

2. If a player has no modules on his CW mech, then he already has no business to be in CW matches in the first place. Fully elited/mastered mechs with modules, or you are gimping your team.

1. Unlocks went from 100k to 60k to 45k. With any of these values, I'm personally fine to re-equip my main tryhard stable of mechs and a few more. But when my unit is doing silly stuff and I go for my Urbie or Trenchbucket, I'm not spending money on that even though I spent the time on it to have earned the unlocks. I'd be happy with 2/3'rds of my old potential. Just give me something for the hours I've put in on these mechs.

2. Completely separate and irrelevant issue WRT this discussion. I'm all for a harder FP entry barrier, but this isn't that discussion. The facts stand that new players can easily obtain additional mechbays and they can get screwed over very hard by this.

[ANOM O MECH]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

The first 40-60 unlocks should cost xp only, to mimic the old style of eliting. The remaining unlocks should represent purchasing modules and that's where they get their 9.1 million cbills sink, and where the whales and rich get their advantage for spending the cbills in the past. That is the way to make the economy of the 91 unlock system work for everyone.


Yes, the skill maze still has other issues, but overall it's a significant step forward, and it needs to happen. Please like, comment or bump to keep this in PGI's eyes.

What you have there is an idea. The merits of which are as questionable as the skill tree itself. So far the last public itteration was much improved and PGI's latest post on the subject does show that there was some things that they had not taken into consideration when putting together the skill tree. So they are working on a plan that I am sure makes more sense than a wonky system of changing prices to skill nodes.

[Big Tin Man]

1453 R, on 14 March 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

The economy doesn't matter for really, truly new players, because they start at the bottom of Mt. Tryhard anyways. They will always be disadvantaged, and the new system meant they'd gain rather than lose simply because they spend their money on one 'Mech, and then can skill that one 'Mech instead of also needing to duplicate their investment twice over for maximum gain.

The retention of Rule of 3 hurts new players and the NPE economy a whole helluva lot more than anything the Skilltree could throw at them does. Cheap players like me who only ever elited 'Mechs, very rarely bothered with master module slots, and got by on a handful of modules kept on specific special favorites or swapped around as needed are the ones taking it in the exhaust ports hardest with the proposed economy, not new players.

The economy. Does. Not. MATTER.. Only the long-term viability of the system, and I'd argue that even the Skill Swamp is an improvement over Rule of 3 and the basic/elite/master junk tiers. Alas, we'll never get to properly find out.

It still hurts truly new players, because basics don't require the rule of 3. So how do you feel about tiered costs? First 30 are free (basics), second 30 cost 1X (rule of 3 mech cost), last 31 cost 2X (module costs, whale cbill sink). You can adjust the numbers around if you think that isn't balanced, but incrementally adjust the cost upward as you unlock more and move toward modules.

And new player retention absolutely matters. New players are much more likely to buy mechpacks, steam packs, and PT, whereas the whales are either full of mechs, or have only 1 or 2 favorites left out there that aren't in the game and aren't buying anymore and are sitting on years of banked PT as they are waiting for the game to do... something.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 14 March 2017 - 10:08 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

Compromise is hard. Do you have an idea that is very close to the current system that offers a cbill sink for the whales while at the same time not screwing over new players?

By focusing on skill points instead of nodes, it really is that simple. The reason PGI focused on nodes was most likely because they wanted to monetize it more so than they would've if they had simply monetized skill points but that is the closest to being equal to our current paths, especially so if they had gone down Solahama's route and separated the firepower tree from everything (like it should).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 March 2017 - 10:10 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 March 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

By focusing on skill points instead of nodes, it really is that simple. The reason PGI focused on nodes was most likely because they wanted to monetize it more so than they would've if they had simply monetized skill points but that is the closest to being equal to our current paths, especially so if they had gone down Solahama's route and separated the firepower tree from everything (like it should).

The main problem I see with this is it would take some serious reworking on the back end to make it work (the interchangeable skill points). The current PTS version is just a different UI over the same logic pathing backend that is in the live version.

And I like Solahama's option a lot. I just think it's out of PGI's reach to develop. Keep in mind it's been 4 months since this was revealed at mechcon and this is where we are. I'm trying to aim at a target they can hit.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 14 March 2017 - 10:16 AM.

[1453 R]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

It still hurts truly new players, because basics don't require the rule of 3. So how do you feel about tiered costs? First 30 are free (basics), second 30 cost 1X (rule of 3 mech cost), last 31 cost 2X (module costs, whale cbill sink). You can adjust the numbers around if you think that isn't balanced, but incrementally adjust the cost upward as you unlock more and move toward modules.

And new player retention absolutely matters. New players are much more likely to buy mechpacks, steam packs, and PT, whereas the whales are either full of mechs, or have only 1 or 2 favorites left out there that aren't in the game and aren't buying anymore and are sitting on years of banked PT as they are waiting for the game to do... something.

I don't care about the cost. I'll pay the cost and smile about it if paying that cost means my skill tree choices are meaningful and fun. The current filler system is neither, it's simply a new-'Mech penalty. Dangling the removal of Rule of 3 in front of me and then snatching it away hurts a lot more than attacking my wallet does.

What would be good is per-chassis Armored Core 4-style tuning points. Unlock your 91 or whatever number nodes, however you have to, but then you can reallocate those nodes at any time, rather than having to pay and regrind. Once you unlock it, it's yours. The respec is the only thing that irritates me; the up-front cost is marginal. You have ~150 mastered 'Mechs because you've played a bunch of different machines over the years and then set most of them aside. You don't need all those 'Mechs to stay fully mastered, and the HXP conversion means they'll have something to go on if you ever do go back for a lark.

We lost the Skill Tree completely due to people ranting like mad about the economy of it. That bugs me to no end, especially since it's going to severely impact FutureTech, as well. What will happen to the plans for new, Rule of 3-free FutureTech 'Mech packs, a whole new monetization system Piranha was assembling based on this Skill Tree the forum has forced them to abandon? Are we going back to twenty-buck 'Val-U-Paks'? Why do I still have to grind one 'Mech three different times?

To Gehenna with the godsdamned economy. We need to get the actual, in-game implementation correct and get this damn thing in here, because everything else is getting backed up and screwed over now that the Skill Tree is dead.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

I'm trying to aim at a target they can hit.

That's the problem, there isn't one they can hit really without alienating a good chunk of players somewhere. I get that people want a skill tree, this just isn't something that we can really compromise on. Hell, I'm even compromising by saying there should be a skill tree to begin with because I don't like progression that alters gameplay like this does.

[Big Tin Man]

1453--Keep in mind this is the best PGI could do after 4+ months. I think the meaningful and fun choices ship has long sailed if you want to see a skill tree this year, or likely ever. It's something we're just not going to get. The current PTS does work for choosing skills, even if you choose the same ones for every mech which is boring. I do agree that they need to get the damn thing in here and move forward with other features. They can't do that with a broken economy. This fixes the broken economy and moves the game forward.