37 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

So i listed to the podcast and maybe i am totally out there.. It has been known to happen. But piecing together some things that chris said.

He has played this game for a while and is a pretty good player.

He started working on balance type issues, but my guess is part of that has been the skill tree, and the new weapons that are coming.

Skill tree is not a balance tool per-say, but needs some tweaking and can be used in conjunction with weapon balance. (the skill tree is also not about individual mechs, More spending nodes and filling rolls, and those skills in that tree might not fit every single mech because only 2 trees exist, one clan, one IS, so it needs to be flexible for all)

Reduction in over all effectiveness of the skill trees, meaning you can't get all the boosts like you can on live, but it does have some things you can. (slow game play perhaps?).

Quirks were removed from tons of mechs to get some baseline sats while they tweak the skill trees.

New IS weapons are coming along sooner than later, so a balance pass will be in order for the IS side.

By the time these weapons come, skill tree should be pretty tweaked and set by that point and they can get onto the next big task of adding the new weapons, balancing the base weapons, and after this boost under performing mechs.

Weapon quirks were also reduced in an effort to help with baseline balance.



So, it sounds like the next big thing coming IMO is a pretty big balance pass after the new assault mode or what ever it's being called now is coming. I remain optimistic.

[Pjwned]

Anything that moves away from overdone quirks on every mech is almost certainly going to be better.

Can't use quirks as band-aid fixes for everything anymore? Well that doesn't leave much room to do anything else other than address issues like tech imbalance directly, and maybe something actually useful will get done towards that end instead of PGI's long since completely detached from the game management not accomplishing anything of value at all.

It's either that or balance just stays completely ****ed, which is fine too since that would give me enough reason to finally leave forever.

[RestosIII]

So what you're saying is that we need to wait until around fall for underperforming mechs to get buffed. I'd rather not wait that long, if I'm brutally honest.

[Lupis Volk]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

So what you're saying is that we need to wait until around fall for underperforming mechs to get buffed. I'd rather not wait that long, if I'm brutally honest.

I'd rather have the KNOWN under performers buffed now, but i'm being unrealistic.

[Clownwarlord]

Well it was stated by PGI in one of their many front page news things that the did the decoupling of engines, the new skill tree, and removal of quirks so they could balance the mechs on their base stats. I just can't remember which one because there has been many.

But also unlike many of the community, I know how to read and I actually read those news blurbs.

[Lupis Volk]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Well it was stated by PGI in one of their many front page news things that the did the decoupling of engines, the new skill tree, and removal of quirks so they could balance the mechs on their base stats. I just can't remember which one because there has been many.

But also unlike many of the community, I know how to read and I actually read those news blurbs.

Issue is many if the IS rely on those quirks and from what i've been hearing the Skill tree doesn't give back what it takes. Meanwhile i've been hearing that the Clans are keeping all of their quirks.

This may or may not be true but this is my only concern. The ever so fragile IS vs Clan balance.

[Clownwarlord]

Lupis Volk, on 13 March 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

Issue is many if the IS rely on those quirks and from what i've been hearing the Skill tree doesn't give back what it takes. Meanwhile i've been hearing that the Clans are keeping all of their quirks.

This may or may not be true but this is my only concern. The ever so fragile IS vs Clan balance.

Correction the both lost some or all.

Inner Sphere:
http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

Clan:
http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf

Those are from one of the news blurbs on the front page.

Edited by Clownwarlord, 13 March 2017 - 12:14 AM.

[AnTi90d]

Current System:

Night Gyr: has no quirks = wrecks face.

Cataphract: has strong quirks = still mediocre.

PGI Skill Tree:

Night Gyr: still has no quirks / even stronger poptart with skill system / buffed velocity of Gauss & PPC = god tier in skill tree universe.

Cataphract: loses nearly all of its quirks / can't even regain a fraction of previous quirks with skill tree = abysmal garbage in skill tree universe.

[R Valentine]

AnTi90d, on 13 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Current System:

Night Gyr: has no quirks = wrecks face.

Cataphract: has strong quirks = still mediocre.

PGI Skill Tree:

Night Gyr: still has no quirks / even stronger poptart with skill system / buffed velocity of Gauss & PPC = god tier in skill tree universe.

Cataphract: loses nearly all of its quirks / can't even regain a fraction of previous quirks with skill tree = abysmal garbage in skill tree universe.

Pretty much this. There's no "between the lines" to be reading. IS mechs are heavily quirked because they're garbage otherwise. Meanwhile, clan mechs like the Ebon Jag and Night Gyr with no quirks to speak of, wreck face. There is something blatantly wrong with removing IS mech quirks while allowing unquirked clan mechs to flourish. They're also nerfing the Battlemaster, which is stupid. Why are they going after IS mechs that are struggling with the current system? The new tree affects all mechs equally, so taking something away from IS mechs and virtually nothing away from clan mechs EXCEPT THE ONES WHO ARE ALREADY DOING POORLY make zero sense. Quirks are there for a reason. You can't take them out without fixing said reason. Another year and you may as well change the timeline to "the clans conquered everyone, now we all pilot clan only".

[WarHippy]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Well it was stated by PGI in one of their many front page news things that the did the decoupling of engines, the new skill tree, and removal of quirks so they could balance the mechs on their base stats. I just can't remember which one because there has been many.

But also unlike many of the community, I know how to read and I actually read those news blurbs.

Let me ask you a question. What exactly is the difference between quirks and base stats? All quirks do is modify the base stats of a mech. So they are removing quirks, decoupling engines, and creating a very piss poor skill tree so they can better balance mechs by adding quirks modifying base stats? All any of these changes do is modify the same numbers we have been playing around with for years and attaching a price tag to a lot of it in the new skill tree. I really don't see what there is to be excited about balance wise as none of these changes are really doing anything to fix balance anymore so than what was already being done. The skill tree was an excellent opportunity to actually address balance, but so far it looks like they are squandering it.

[Paigan]

AnTi90d, on 13 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Current System:

Night Gyr: has no quirks = wrecks face.

Cataphract: has strong quirks = still mediocre.

PGI Skill Tree:

Night Gyr: still has no quirks / even stronger poptart with skill system / buffed velocity of Gauss & PPC = god tier in skill tree universe.

Cataphract: loses nearly all of its quirks / can't even regain a fraction of previous quirks with skill tree = abysmal garbage in skill tree universe.

I have something similar (and that while being pure clanner):

MAD IIC right now: no quirks, more less OP (speed, agility, hardpoints amount and locations, flexibility, even hitboxes are good. Somehow my legs shield my torso and my tiny arms suck way more damage than they should)
MAD IIC on PTS: more agility, overall more dps, more range, less heat.

I won't lie: I'm thrilled to get those buffs.
But balance is something else ...

[Johnny Z]

Perfect time to balance Clan and Inner Sphere. Everyone is crying about the new skill tree already, may as well go all in.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 March 2017 - 07:54 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

P.G.I screwed balance with this, new tech will screw it more. P.G.I have never implemented anything that worked correctly without months of tweaking, or they left it broken.

I shall probably keep playing until the doors close, but I doubt very much, I'll be contributing to it's future, for a long long time, if ever again.

Cupcake with a 4 on it is pretty much a done deal, I'm questioning whether there will be a 5 cupcake.

What with rule of three going, burn out, HBS's Battletech launch, and these changes, I feel that this could easily cost P.G.I 25-50% of it's income if the feelings expressed here and on you tube contributions are duplicated across the whole community.

P.G.I have been here at the edge of the cliff before. Now they seemed determined to jump, I guess it really is a question of how long the free fall is before the chute opens.

[Bud Crue]

AnTi90d, on 13 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Current System:

Night Gyr: has no quirks = wrecks face.

Cataphract: has strong quirks = still mediocre.

PGI Skill Tree:

Night Gyr: still has no quirks / even stronger poptart with skill system / buffed velocity of Gauss & PPC = god tier in skill tree universe.

Cataphract: loses nearly all of its quirks / can't even regain a fraction of previous quirks with skill tree = abysmal garbage in skill tree universe.

No, no. If you read between the lines it is all perfectly clear: they NEED to nerf those already crap mechs, otherwise how will they know just how crappy they are in the new system? There is a perfectly good chance that the gods of entropy will reach down and some how magically make mechs that are crap in the current system -with quirks- somehow better in the new system -without quirks. This is there real concern. Thus, it is necessary to establish of a new "baseline" of performance sans quirks (ignore the fact that some mechs are for some reason keeping current offensive quirks, some are getting reduced quirks and others are having there's eliminated entirely...baseline indeed) and diligently monitor the performance of these newly gutted mechs so that they will be able to understand that crappy mechs do indeed still need quirks.

The current system is sooo different that no empirical evidence from the current system can be applied too the new system. Its a whole new game! The magic baseline and its study is a necessity so that we can know that bad mechs are still bad in that new game.

Of course there are two wee little problems with the gutting of bad mechs to establish this new baseline of comparison:

First, Who's going to be playing those gutted mechs when the skills tree goes live? Doesn't observing the performance of these mechs and the establishment of this wonderous baseline require people...lots of people...to play such mechs? Who's gonna bother playing a mech that was bad before and now has been made worse when they have better alternatives? Good luck getting your "data".

Second, so after monitoring and studying all the seventeen people playing all of these newly nerfed crap mech (see above) the assumption is that PGI will step in and re-quirk these mechs to their previous middling to crap states? Maybe they will do this within what a month? What about data? No certainly they need longer than a month to study their new base line? Maybe six months? A year? So what are folks supposed to do until PGI gets around to fixing -WHAT THEY JUST BROKE? Have you ever heard of the Victor?

Sigh.

Yes, by all means go read between the lines of PGI's various announcements regarding the nerfs. It is very enlightening.

[Gas Guzzler]

AnTi90d, on 13 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Current System:

Night Gyr: has no quirks = wrecks face.

Cataphract: has strong quirks = still mediocre.

PGI Skill Tree:

Night Gyr: still has no quirks / even stronger poptart with skill system / buffed velocity of Gauss & PPC = god tier in skill tree universe.

Cataphract: loses nearly all of its quirks / can't even regain a fraction of previous quirks with skill tree = abysmal garbage in skill tree universe.

This much is clear. We can only hope that PGI's next step is to address tech balance.

[Cy Mitchell]

I can only hope that there is a long term goal for balance. I had hoped that the Skill Tree would play a part in that but that was not the case. Adding additional quirks through skills to the top tier Mechs while removing quirks from underperformers is bad on many levels. It makes some of the best Mechs even more powerful. It increases power creep, It widens the balance gap. It threatens to further lower TTK. It kills diversity by making it necessary to use a few of the exact same Mechs and builds in order to compete against those that will always use only the best.

I really hope that there is stuff that I do not know about the Skill Tree and balance that will eventually make this all come out OK.

Beyond that, I am OK with the Skill Tree.

[MechaBattler]

Bad mechs are still going to be bad even with new weapons. If a new weapon might make a bad mech decentish. It'll make a better mech great.

There are always going to be facets about mechs that make them better or worse. If they don't address those facets in some form. Then there will always be bad mechs.

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 13 March 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Perfect time to balance Clan and Inner Sphere. Everyone is crying about the new skill tree already, may as well go all in.

Did you just say "lore-based Clan Formations vs. IS formations"?!

[Dr Mlem]

I get PGI's mentality of "they can make those quirks back up in weapon tree"

But here's the thing, it makes the weapon tree mandatory for IS then. So much for the illusion of choice. Any chasis that are balanced around their weapon systems, are forced to take the weapon tree.

As someone who plays almost all clans, I can skip the tree if I want. Mobility and toughness increased by the pure merit of being clan tech. Doesn't seem like balance, or even a very fair system for IS.

Which is a shame.

Edited by Lazy Badger, 13 March 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[R Valentine]

Lazy Badger, on 13 March 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

I get PGI's mentality of "they can make those quirks back up in weapon tree"

But here's the thing, it makes the weapon tree mandatory for IS then. So much for the illusion of choice. Any chasis that are balanced around their weapon systems, are forced to take the weapon tree.

As someone who plays almost all clans, I can skip the tree if I want. Mobility and toughness increased by the pure merit of being clan tech. Doesn't seem like balance, or even a very fair system for IS.

Which is a shame.

That's because it's not. It's just giving clan mechs the option of having whatever quirks they want and forcing IS players to recoup their lost quirks via the firepower tree. So IS went down, clan went up. Balance is actually going to be much, much worse.