676 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

Corviness, on 30 March 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Why do he need to say in publicity, he blocked this or those guys? Ah... because they could have"real" argues, like you and have logical arguments against him.

Its also not that easy to block someone. Well maybe if you keep the specific way bookmarked it is... but here...I'll dig up the instructions for it...

Clicking the "Profile" tab at top > "View Forum Profile" link at right > "Edit my Profile" button at upper-right > "'Ignore' Preferences" tab at left

should lead you to:
https://mwomercs.com...ea=ignoredusers

There, you'll find the options to ignore all signatures or the selected posts, signatures, and/or private messages of select users. It may be best to copy & paste user names, in case of tricky characters. Click the "Save Changes" button at the bottom to update the list per user.

[Mcgral18]

Ah, the Starch never ends

Corviness, on 30 March 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ghardyne, he will talk and talk everytime against you if you post somthing, that could tilt some of his opinon, its wasted time, you talk against a wall. ^^

And here you are, refusing to answer his questions, and attacking him


That means you've lost.

[Corviness]

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Ah, the Starch never ends



And here you are, refusing to answer his questions, and attacking him


That means you've lost.

You really think that this is a fight? "Loose - Win" Wtf... I call this unprofessionality and nonsense, if someone has no practical argues, only offensive, bullying answers. Espectuailly, if I ask for another idea and he doesn't give any other ideas. But stupid people are everywhere. And keep in mind he begin to write ****, not dee, not ghardyne or me. So lets quit this chapter.

Edited by Corviness, 31 March 2017 - 01:19 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Dee Eight, on 30 March 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Its also not that easy to block someone. Well maybe if you keep the specific way bookmarked it is... but here...I'll dig up the instructions for it...

Clicking the "Profile" tab at top > "View Forum Profile" link at right > "Edit my Profile" button at upper-right > "'Ignore' Preferences" tab at left

should lead you to:
https://mwomercs.com...ea=ignoredusers

There, you'll find the options to ignore all signatures or the selected posts, signatures, and/or private messages of select users. It may be best to copy & paste user names, in case of tricky characters. Click the "Save Changes" button at the bottom to update the list per user.

had to block about 6 people on another thread. I actually realized today how much thread space I was also wasting conversing with specific people. Then figuring out they weren't really reading what I was saying, rather just attacking me for everything I said.

just learn this is the internet, some people take advantage of the fact that they aren't really accountable for what they say and the manner in which they say it, and just move on. Focus on the people actually willing to have a conversation, good dialogue, modest disagreement. Not worth the stress for people sitting on the other end of a computer.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 31 March 2017 - 01:33 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Corviness, on 31 March 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

You really think that this is a fight? "Loose - Win" Wtf... I call this unprofessionality and nonsense, if someone has no practical argues, only offensive, bullying answers. Espectuailly, if I ask for another idea and he doesn't give any other ideas. But stupid people are everywhere. And keep in mind he begin to write ****, not dee, not ghardyne or me. So lets quit this chapter.

There is no other idea needed, balance current equipment
There are dozens of threads with specifics, and in those different ideas. isXL does not die on ST loss, or isXL gets a Structure boost to be overall more durable than a Clam ST, but still die on ST loss. Higher skill ceiling, in that it could take more damage than a cXL


That is good asymmetrical balance
Having a different number of people on either side will not work well, and be an even greater pain to balance. Equipment AND population.

[MovinTarget]

Bottom line, none of us- *none* of us can answer for all of us.

"Balance" is a stupid word for such arguments because there is no logostical way to ensure balance unless we all have not only the same mechs/tech but same computer hardware and interwebz speed.

We also may have different ideas about what balance is.

To some it has a 1v1 context, others a team vs team...

Others simply define balance as no side having an inherent advantage or disadvatage greater than the opposition. A definition so vague it is virtually assured to never be satisfactory for all sides unless lore is wholly ejected and tech/mechs homogenized to the point of indistinguishabilty.

Heck some people that scream for balance want nothing of the sort, they figure if they cry enough they'll actually be able to skew things to their advantage.

So argue all you all want, but none of you speak for everyone, and none of you are wholly right or wrong

Edited by MovinTarget, 31 March 2017 - 04:24 AM.

[Angel Devereaux]

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Which drawbacks are those?
They're generally heavier and larger, so additional drawbacks
Lasers have less damage&range




Can confirm
Clams are more powerful now, and I play them almost exclusively (Why can't I leave you, WubShee?)

If they got even more powerful, and 2 fewer players?
Aw yiss, fewer Potatos to Carry, AND extra damage to farm (because of less guns on your side)?!
WIN WIN!

I mean like ghost heat and longer burn times, or do you think additional weight is enough of a balance, I was looking at the stats on sarna and it looks like the damage is different but the wieght and crit slots are the same for both sides

Edit: Correction ER Mediums and smalls were basically the same except for range and damage larges have different weight and crit slots. still not sure if that totally balances out the burn times and ghost heat for clans though

Edited by Angel Devereaux, 31 March 2017 - 05:16 AM.

[Oberost]

Angel Devereaux, on 31 March 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

I mean like ghost heat and longer burn times, or do you think additional weight is enough of a balance?

Additional weight PLUS additional space requirements PLUS less range...

[Oberost]

Angel Devereaux, on 31 March 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

I mean like ghost heat and longer burn times, or do you think additional weight is enough of a balance, I was looking at the stats on sarna and it looks like the damage is different but the wieght and crit slots are the same for both sides

What weapon stats are you looking at?

Because as fas as I know almost every IS weapon (SL and MG and things like that apart) is heavier, larger and usually with less range that the Clan version...

Edit to ad some links...

http://www.sarna.net...g_Range_Missile
http://www.sarna.net...t_Range_Missile
http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher
http://www.sarna.net...LB-X_Autocannon
http://www.sarna.net...ltra_Autocannon

Edited by Oberost, 31 March 2017 - 05:21 AM.

[Abisha]

ahhh I only see a picture so what update?

[Mcgral18]

Angel Devereaux, on 31 March 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

I mean like ghost heat and longer burn times, or do you think additional weight is enough of a balance, I was looking at the stats on sarna and it looks like the damage is different but the wieght and crit slots are the same for both sides

Edit: Correction ER Mediums and smalls were basically the same except for range and damage larges have different weight and crit slots. still not sure if that totally balances out the burn times and ghost heat for clans though

Clans win in almost every aspect when it comes to lasers. They have longer durations, but in the same time frame, they deal more dam than their IS counterparts.


Most of the IS equipment will need fair buffs when coming in, or the Clam stuff nerfs.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

More maps please.

[Edward Hazen]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Clans win in almost every aspect when it comes to lasers. They have longer durations, but in the same time frame, they deal more dam than their IS counterparts.


Most of the IS equipment will need fair buffs when coming in, or the Clam stuff nerfs.

Clan lasers do more damage, yes, but the beam duration is significantly longer so Clan lasers can rarely do full damage in a pinpoint location, unless an IS pilot just stands still. Also, Clan lasers generate noticeably more heat and have a lower "ghost heat," tolerance than IS (IS can fire 3 LL/LPL without ghost heat, Clans fire 2 before ghost heat). No further buffs or nerfs are needed. If you are a static player, like in a missile boat or a sniper, then I would suggest changing position once in a while.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 31 March 2017 - 10:09 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Edward Hazen, on 31 March 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Clan lasers do more damage, yes, but the beam duration is significantly longer so Clan lasers can rarely do full damage in a pinpoint location, unless an IS pilot just stands still. Also, Clan lasers generate noticeably more heat and have a lower "ghost heat," tolerance than IS (IS can fire 3 LL/LPL without ghost heat, Clans fire 2 before ghost heat). No further buffs or nerfs are needed. If you are a static played, like in a missile boat or a sniper, then I would suggest changing position once in a while.

You didn't even bother reading my post, did you?
Only two Spheroid lasers deal damage faster than their Clam counterparts
MPL and LPL
LPL is a fantastic weapon, and had a higher GH threshold, so it can fire more of them
The LPL is one of the few well asymmetrically balanced weapon systems.

You are lying if you say the ML or SL class is balanced
LL VS the cLPL is a closer comparison the isLPL, because of the different roles.

ML wise, they have IDENTICAL GH caps, but Clams get the higher damage.
Ml vs ERML. Clams get the higher range, higher damage, and win trades VS MLs, because they deal marginally more damage in the same 0.9s period the isML burns for, but then also burns fore another .25s, dealing another 2 damage per laser.
Dam per heat is also very similar, for those "super hot Clam lasers", who get higher range, damage AND dam/tick, that 0.083 dam/heat advantage towards the Sphere is totally worth the trade off



Not
I'll take the 42 dam 6ERML load out over and 6 isML build
Preferably with 22/29 DHS, which many Clam mechs can mount, unlike the Sphere. It lets you manage the heat ridiculously easy. 6 MLs on a IS mech would bump you up ~30% heat, but the same ERML build only 35%
It is considerably superior.

MPL wise, paired with LPLs on the Sphere side, is very powerful, if short range. I heartily enjoyed the Wubshee with similar load outs.
The cMPL is al altogether different class. I'd argue its essentially a Heavy Laser in practice. Mid range, high damage poking.
cSPLs compare with isNPLs better, being the same damage, not dissimilar range, and heat.
Those are knightly powerful, unlike the garbage SLs the Sphere has. This is a buff the the IS, btw. I like powerful Smalls, which the Clams have.



Now, in the future, PLEASE use critical thinking when it comes to Clam lasers.
There is one IS laser which is notably more powerful in a different role. No other compares exceedingly well. That is an objective analysis.

Saying "Clams have higher heat!" Without also considering the range, damage and dam/ tick is a faulty analysis, wrought with Clam Apologist bias

Avoid that in the future.

[Y E O N N E]

Edward Hazen, on 31 March 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Clan lasers do more damage, yes, but the beam duration is significantly longer so Clan lasers can rarely do full damage in a pinpoint location, unless an IS pilot just stands still. Also, Clan lasers generate noticeably more heat and have a lower "ghost heat," tolerance than IS (IS can fire 3 LL/LPL without ghost heat, Clans fire 2 before ghost heat). No further buffs or nerfs are needed. If you are a static played, like in a missile boat or a sniper, then I would suggest changing position once in a while.

Now, divide that damage by the duration and tell me who gets the bigger numbers more often. Hint: it isn't the Inner Sphere. That means you can dive back into cover after the IS duration length and still have done more damage with your Clan laser, rendering your duration defense flaccid.

You can also explain to me why the heat matters when you can bring more than enough heatsinks to get the same or better heat efficiency for a given amount of both range and firepower when being able to do so defeats the point of having hotter weapons in the first place.

There are gimpy 'Mechs on both sides, sure, but the good ones on the IS side are pale to the good ones on the Clan side even after quirk assistance.

You, and Sniper, and Corviness, etc. are engaged in this circle-jerk of partial analysis. Do the whole thing and quit lying to yourselves.

[MovinTarget]

Taking the beam length out of the equation...

IS SL 3/.75 = ~4 DPS
CL ERSL 5/1 = ~ 5DPS

IS ML 5/.9 = ~5.6 DPS
CL ERML 7/1.15 = ~6 DPS

IS ERLL 9/1.25 = ~7.2 DPS
CL ERLL 11/1.5 = ~7.3 DPS

Looks like apart from the clan ER SL, the DPS is not hyper significant... not even a full extra 3 dps if you boat 6 ERML.

[MovinTarget]

I was working quickly to make the point that basically the difference is nominal if the beams have the same amount of time on a target, basically clanners get "bonus damage" if they can hold their beam that extra time, but that is often a big if...

[Angel Devereaux]

It seems the IS and Clan ERs will be very close performance wise, that being said there should be some sort of performance drawback other than crit slots or weight, especially since IS will now have an XL engine that works like a clan XL.

[Sniper09121986]

Angel Devereaux, on 31 March 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

It seems the IS and Clan ERs will be very close performance wise, that being said there should be some sort of performance drawback other than crit slots or weight, especially since IS will now have an XL engine that works like a clan XL.

Actually the LFE is its own counter in that it is 25% lighter than the STD, while XL is 50% lighter. Now, to make things really interesting we need http://www.sarna.net...on_Engine_-_XXL that also comes off with the side torso, even the Clan version. I know I would slap it on some Clan mechs that I own, and I am willing to accept the risk. The IS will also find uses for it in place of existing XL since they hardly have anything more to lose because of that. Maybe then the circle-jerk will stop... oh wait, it never will.

[Y E O N N E]

W E N D I G O, on 31 March 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Then add to "this circle-jerk of partial analysis": ISML dps 1.28/hps 1.03 (11 dhs for heat-neutrality needed) - CERML dps 1.69/hps 1.45(15 dhs for heat-neutrality needed). 10 DHS in engine for both possible, 3 critslots for IS, 10 critslots for Clans needed to achieve same heatefficiency - and thus the actual written dps advantage on the Clan side. Because that very number assumes the weapon is heat neutral. Not adding the other stuff for simplicity. That is why "heat matters."

PS: Oh and 1 ton IS for the DHS, 5 ton for Clan.

Do you stand out in the open, firing your lasers on full cycle so that the DPS actually matters? I bet you don't.

Also, I am getting way more mileage out if this post than I thought I would:

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

You are not very good at this.

The 24 DHS the Clan build (assuming TBR with one S-torso) gives you has a heat-cap of 85.2. One shot from your alpha puts you at 51.6%.

The 20 DHS the IS 'Mech gives you (assuming BK) has a heat-cap of 78.0. One shot from your alpha puts you at 48.7%

Golly jee, near-enough-as-makes-no-difference! But wait, sonny, there's more!

The dissipation on the Clan build gives you a rate of 4.71. It takes 9.3 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

The dissipation on the IS build gives you a rate of 3.85. It takes 9.4 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

Hmmm, pretty close again! But we're not through yet!

If we drop the S-torso on the TBR and run no JJs (the BK doesn't get JJs anyway), we can fit in another two DHS, giving us a cap of 88.8 and a dissipation of 5.06. We now hit 49.5% on the first shot and get rid of the heat in 8.7 seconds...a whole 0.7 seconds faster.

And on top of having nearly identical soak ratio and dissipation rates, you get to start dealing your full damage a whole 150+ meters sooner! Because targeting computers and ER lasers! Yeah!

Now how about a build that actually competes in the same bracket, buddy?

7x cMPL
56 Damage
46.8 Heat

Same 26 DHS. 52.7% after firing, takes 9.2 seconds to dissipate completely. On top of this, you are dishing out 65.9 damage per second over the course of your burn, which is more than the 57.8 you get from your named IS build, and also more than the 64.4 you get from the 3xLPL+5xML build you would find on the BK in a real match. A BK which, by the way, runs 19 DHS, so it soaks to 53% in one shot and has to wait 10.6 seconds to fire again!


And you people wonder why the IS get heat gen quirks. It's because not only do they actually run just as hot for less damage and less range, they have to be able to fire more once they finally get in range to compensate for the damage they received on the way in.

This schooling session is now closed. Next time, do your homework before mouthing off.

Edit: Oh, and the BK has its hard-points at belly-button level. Enjoy!

I suggest following the quote link for context of the discussion. The jist of it is that every defense you Clan apologists use amounts to comparing single line items with no respect paid to how they fit together and get used in the game. I do not want to see Clans made useless, I own several myself (mostly the gimpy ones, actually), but I also know that there are some problems with tradeoffs to be fixed. The new toys will help, but not as they are and as the game currently is.