101 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I wonder how a 6 HML Loki, with his Jesus Box and 29 DHS will fare

They'll probably go up to 8 heat, but 35% LOLpha for 6 ERMLs (at 7 heat) is pretty reasonable
Aside from the complete lack of range on the Heavies


There's also a 5 HSL 2 HLL 25 DHS monstrosity (well, maybe not)
Could also strip a half ton from the RA, and add a 6th HSL



As a robot with lots of free space, he can use them pretty well, with some adequate mounts. Shame he can't put the HML in the face, though. Mr Gargles doesn't do it quite as well, because Ferro.
6 SPL (or ERMLs), 6 HSL, 27 DHS
Or, swap SPLs for HMLs and a TC1 (no Crit slots for another DHS)
Wild guess: HOT HOT HOT

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

I wonder how a 6 HML Loki, with his Jesus Box and 29 DHS will fare

They'll probably go up to 8 heat, but 35% LOLpha for 6 ERMLs (at 7 heat) is pretty reasonable
Aside from the complete lack of range on the Heavies


There's also a 5 HSL 2 HLL 25 DHS monstrosity (well, maybe not)
Could also strip a half ton from the RA, and add a 6th HSL



As a robot with lots of free space, he can use them pretty well, with some adequate mounts. Shame he can't put the HML in the face, though. Mr Gargles doesn't do it quite as well, because Ferro.
6 SPL (or ERMLs), 6 HSL, 27 DHS
Or, swap SPLs for HMLs and a TC1 (no Crit slots for another DHS)
Wild guess: HOT HOT HOT

It's moments like this that I have to ask, does this game really need 20 different types of lasers?

HML, a higher heat & higher damage laser with shorter range than the barely ever used CMPL.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimax, on 16 March 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

It's moments like this that I have to ask, does this game really need 20 different types of lasers?

HML, a higher heat & higher damage laser with shorter range than the barely ever used CMPL.

I'm really not sure if there's a place for Micro lasers, unless they are different mechanically
The Laser MG route is the only way I see them being a thing


Tiny damage, tiny cooldown


Heavy Lasers, I can see having a place. Whether it be for Brawling, or hardpoint starved Clams
Double HLL SadCat? 17 heatsinks probably wouldn't be enough to cool them.
Myth Lynx just doesn't have the heat for HMLs, I imagine. He struggles with ERMLs

Fridge is pretty well off with ERMLs, and CT can't mount Heavies.



MPL wise...I don't like how they feel, but they can occasionally get results.
I'd honestly say drop the damage, heat, duration, cooldown, and maybe even increase the range a touch (the EXTENDED range, mind you, but maybe not)


More overall DPS, and sustainability, but less LOLpha. LOLpha being the Heavy role. All Clam pulse lasers seem to be like that. Inflated damage and heat, over source (not that source would have been great...but maybe not +30% damage or +100%)
On the Flip side, cSPLs are amazing thanks to doubled damage.


Maybe they'll get touched come July, to get a different role.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 March 2017 - 01:12 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm really not sure if there's a place for Micro lasers, unless they are different mechanically
The Laser MG route is the only way I see them being a thing


Tiny damage, tiny cooldown


Heavy Lasers, I can see having a place. Whether it be for Brawling, or hardpoint starved Clams
Double HLL SadCat? 17 heatsinks probably wouldn't be enough to cool them.
Myth Lynx just doesn't have the heat for HMLs, I imagine. He struggles with ERMLs

Fridge is pretty well off with ERMLs, and CT can't mount Heavies.



MPL wise...I don't like how they feel, but they can occasionally get results.
I'd honestly say drop the damage, heat, duration, cooldown, and maybe even increase the range a touch (the EXTENDED range, mind you, but maybe not)


More overall DPS, and sustainability, but less LOLpha. LOLpha being the Heavy role. All Clam pulse lasers seem to be like that. Inflated damage and heat, over source (not that source would have been great...but maybe not +30% damage or +100%)
On the Flip side, cSPLs are amazing thanks to doubled damage.


Maybe they'll get touched come July, to get a different role.

I could be totally wrong, but no one really uses CMPLs for brawling (in any competitive capacity) now.

You are either loaded with SRMs and/or some kind of ballistic option or you have some relatively efficient SPL build with a ton of heat sinks.

I don't really see a place for such a high heat weapon in an all out brawl.

HLLAS really depends on what the hell they do with those stats, the heat they generate is ludicrous but the damage per ton is equally ludicrous.

As is two of them would be almost the same heat as 2x CLPLs + 3x CERMLAS probably with less range but also at almost half the weight.


Really not much we can theorycraft without actual numbers from PGI.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimax, on 16 March 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

I could be totally wrong, but no one really uses CMPLs for brawling (in any competitive capacity) now.

You are either loaded with SRMs and/or some kind of ballistic option or you have some relatively efficient SPL build with a ton of heat sinks.

I don't really see a place for such a high heat weapon in an all out brawl.

HLLAS really depends on what the hell they do with those stats, the heat they generate is ludicrous but the damage per ton is equally ludicrous.

As is two of them would be almost the same heat as 2x CLPLs + 3x CERMLAS probably with less range but also at almost half the weight.


Really not much we can theorycraft without actual numbers from PGI.

I agree with MPLs
They are mid range PUG LIFE pokers

...How about 5 damage instead?
And a half second burn time

1 Dam/tick (a completely marginal increase, VS .94, equal to the isMPL)
4 heat
Range staying at 330 and 2x Range profile
Cooldown being decreased to 2.0 seconds (recycle time down from 3.85s to 2.5 seconds)
DPS going from 2.08 to 2.0
HPS going from 1.81 to 1.33


Of course, that might be too fast a cycle time. It has more DPS than the isMPL, but also more HPS
It would be less DPS than the current cMPL...maybe this wasn't thought out well enough.

SPL would also need to change under a proposed Clam Pulse revamp, but this would strike optimally with less exposure at longer range.


Would it be insane for a Clam laser to have less damage than the Spheroid? Longer range, higher DPS, lower Dam/heat, similar exposure and Dam/tick
Because the more I think about it, cMPLs and pretty much any proposed HML would have the same role. LOLpha and fall back, because they're both hot weapons.

And HLLs would certainly see a heat decrease. 18 heat for 16 damage is some of the worst you'll find (isERPPC aside)

For the range, I'd almost expect them to get swapped, or to have halfway decent burn times (for terrible heat).

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 March 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimax, on 16 March 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

It's moments like this that I have to ask, does this game really need 20 different types of lasers?

HML, a higher heat & higher damage laser with shorter range than the barely ever used CMPL.

The Heavy Lasers' intended "role" is having a crapton of damage relative to their very low tonnage requirements. They're meant to allow mechs with low pod space to pack a big punch. However, the cost here is that their extreme heat makes them not worth it to try to boat.

For example that Heavy ML could potentially have 10 damage for 1 ton...that's damn incredible. The Clan MPL is 8 damage for 2 tons, aka 4 damage per ton.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

The Heavy Lasers' intended "role" is having a crapton of damage relative to their very low tonnage requirements. They're meant to allow mechs with low pod space to pack a big punch. However, the cost here is that their extreme heat makes them not worth it to try to boat.

For example that Heavy ML could potentially have 10 damage for 1 ton...that's damn incredible. The Clan MPL is 8 damage for 2 tons, aka 4 damage per ton.

It doesn't matter what the table top role is, the point is what is it's role in this game going to be.

21 different types of lasers, means not all of them can actually have a real role. Some stuff will be obsolete, that's reality and hoping for anything else is just being unrealistic.

[FupDup]

Ultimax, on 16 March 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

It doesn't matter what the table top role is, the point is what is it's role in this game going to be.

21 different types of lasers, means not all of them can actually have a real role. Some stuff will be obsolete, that's reality and hoping for anything else is just being unrealistic.

On the civil war update page PGI even says "A family of lasers that do high damage at the cost of higher heat and less range," so it looks like they are keeping the same role. The basic stats though will problem change, like at least +1 heat on the HSL and HML (because of all S/M class lasers being hotter).

Heavy lasers are actually really easy to differentiate. Whether or not PGI will succeed is always something to worry about, but that's not a problem with the weapon family itself.

The best example of a laser family that would be fairly hard to differentiate (without creating redundancy/obsolescence) are ER Pulse Lasers. Those aren't getting added to MWO (yet?), though. The Micro class is another one, which PGI is adding...

Edited by FupDup, 16 March 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

On the civil war update page PGI even says "A family of lasers that do high damage at the cost of higher heat and less range," so it looks like they are keeping the same role. The basic stats though will problem change, like at least +1 heat on the HSL and HML (because of all S/M class lasers being hotter).

Heavy lasers are actually really easy to differentiate. Whether or not PGI will succeed is always something to worry about, but that's not a problem with the weapon family itself.

The best example of a laser family that would be fairly hard to differentiate (without creating redundancy/obsolescence) are ER Pulse Lasers. Those aren't getting added to MWO (yet?), though. The Micro class is another one, which PGI is adding...

HSL damage as well, it equals the SPL


The entire cPulse line could probably stand to change...because as it reads, they already fill the role of Heavy Lasers, at greater range.

Harder hitting, hotter weapons (SPL not being hotter, just amazeballs)


Micro Pulse could become the laser MG...but ER Micro can't exactly be the same thing
Or can it, in a MG VS LMG sort of way?

0.1 Duration, 0.1 Cooldown, X damage
Or just straight up no duration, damage+heat as you fire (like a slightly longer range Flamer, which deals damage but no heat)

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

HSL damage as well, it equals the SPL

Yeah, having 7 damage would probably be a good starting point for it.

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

The entire cPulse line could probably stand to change...because as it reads, they already fill the role of Heavy Lasers, at greater range.

Clam Pulses don't have the crazy high heat to deal with, so that's a big difference right there. Duration is likely to be a factor as well...

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Micro Pulse could become the laser MG...but ER Micro can't exactly be the same thing
Or can it, in a MG VS LMG sort of way?

0.1 Duration, 0.1 Cooldown, X damage
Or just straight up no duration, damage+heat as you fire (like a slightly longer range Flamer, which deals damage but no heat)

That's a fun idea I've had as well, but I don't think PGI would allow them to be so radically different from existing pulse laser lines. PGI will more likely than not make the Micro beamers behave similar to the IS Small beamers (e.g. Micro Wub being analogous to IS Small Wub).

For the ER Micro I've wondered what it would be like being fully PPFLD (exact opposite of the proposed Micro Pulse). Still does dinky damage, so not like it's gonna be overpowered like that.

Edited by FupDup, 16 March 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yeah, having 7 damage would probably be a good starting point for it.


Clam Pulses don't have the crazy high heat to deal with, so that's a big difference right there. Duration is likely to be a factor as well...


That's a fun idea I've had as well, but I don't think PGI would allow them to be so radically different from existing pulse laser lines. PGI will more likely than not make the Micro beamers behave similar to the IS Small beamers (e.g. Micro Wub being analogous to IS Small Wub).

For the ER Micro I've wondered what it would be like being fully PPFLD (exact opposite of the proposed Micro Pulse). Still does dinky damage, so not like it's gonna be overpowered like that.

The cSPL got the one extra point of heat, but the MPL gained the 2 heat for 1 damage
Worst of all the Pulses
LPL gained 3 damage for source heat, but isLPL lost 3, so that's a wash, I guess

It is the HML role, as far as I can tell. High damage, high heat, med Range (while HML might fall into Low range depending on damage falloff)



There's an idea for the ERu (u is Micro, right? I'll use that nomenclature. But uER or ERu?)
Differentiates it from all lasers
But are you sure you aren't doing that just because we didn't get the Magshots?

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 March 2017 - 05:36 PM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

It is the HML role, as far as I can tell. High damage, high heat, med Range (while HML might fall into Low range depending on damage falloff)

The heat of the CMPL is the same as the CERML. The HML should be 8 at minimum and I could even see it going up to 9 if balance requires it.

The CMPL, like all wubs, is about having greater precision and allowing you to twist away faster compared to the regular or ER version of the same class.

Heavy Beamers are on the other hand about raw stopping power. And to restate, Heavy Beamers should have heat so high that they are a dumb idea to boat (including pretty low Ghost Heat limits like 2-3 for HML), while wubs are fairly decent in both small numbers and being boated. PGI may also be tempted to jack up the beam duration here, which the HML could survive just fine but the HLL might have issues...

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

There's an idea for the ERu (u is Micro, right? I'll use that nomenclature. But uER or ERu?)
Differentiates it from all lasers
But are you sure you aren't doing that just because we didn't get the Magshots?

Magshots aren't really related since those are IS guns while the ER Micro is Clan. That, and it's also energy vs. ballistic. Mag gets way more range too...

[Pariah Devalis]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

The heat of the CMPL is the same as the CERML. The HML should be 8 at minimum and I could even see it going up to 9 if balance requires it.

The CMPL, like all wubs, is about having greater precision and allowing you to twist away faster compared to the regular or ER version of the same class.

Heavy Beamers are on the other hand about raw stopping power. And to restate, Heavy Beamers should have heat so high that they are a dumb idea to boat (including pretty low Ghost Heat limits like 2-3 for HML), while wubs are fairly decent in both small numbers and being boated. PGI may also be tempted to jack up the beam duration here, which the HML could survive just fine but the HLL might have issues...

"I know you all loved the second and a half Clan ERLLas burn duration, so what if I told you we, at PGI, are releasing a laser with a full two and a half second burn duration? It's pretty groundbreaking, exciting stuff!"
---- Paul Inouye (Probably)


The heat being high enough, though, and the weapons having a lower range than the ER, might make sense to actually reduce the burn duration. Since heat is generated over the course of the burn, it would be a lot of sudden heat. You would suddenly be saturated with heat, but you would be outputting a lot of damage in a short space of time. It's also a close range weapon, for high risk in heat for high reward in damage.

Edit: Range past effective should have a stiff drop though. Say... 1.25x effective?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 March 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

What I did with Heavy Lasers is gave them 6/10/18 damage and 3/7/16 heat for S/M/L, but their ranges are each one hex shorter than their standard IS counterparts (so 120/240/480 vice the 150/270/510 I have the IS lasers set to) and with a max range of 1.75x instead of 2x. Duration is also slightly longer than the IS versions at 0.9/1/1.15 vice 0.75/0.82/1. Ghost heat for Mediums and Smalls is linked, including with all other Mediums and Smalls, at 6. Larges at 2, with other Larges.

I figure, the high heat and shorter range will take care of any issues. Only the larges seem overly problematic, but with a limit of two and generating more heat than an ERPPC, you will want a lot of DHS to cool them. At 8 tons for a pair, you can get a lot of heatsinks to do so and if you try to bring too many cERML to go with it, you will get burned...literally.

I think it's pretty successful at filling the role of "boosting starved 'Mechs" without being abusive, but feel free to point out anything I've overlooked.

WIP tables are linked on GDocs, for those who care to peruse.

[LordNothing]

the rocket launcher 1 use thing, hows that work. one trigger pull is going to be kind of weak. potatos will cry when they test their weapon and realize that was their only shot. so im interpreting this is it has x rockets, each rocket is a pretty powerful warhead, but you only get x of them, where x = rating (rl20 gives you 20 rockets). the rockets fire one at a time and you dont have to fire them all in one salvo, but there are no reloads when you are out. it kind of breaks the tt rules but i think its a better way of doing it. or it could just end up using ammo.

std engine can be given some extra cooling to make them not irrelevant. or perhaps buff the ct armor. im probibly still going to use it, i can justify using it on some clan battlemechs despite having perfectly good clan engine in my inventory. i dont think its gone, especially since its the only way to run hgauss. can haz hollander?

ltag. its going to be the new streak companion. i do this thing where i group a tag in the same weapon group as my launchers. that way i can just aim it like any other weapon, hold down the trigger, and the missiles will fire the instant the lock is complete. 600 meters worth of tag is way too much, so the light tag is going to save me another half ton for ammo. this is going to make streak lights more fun.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

the rocket launcher 1 use thing, hows that work. one trigger pull is going to be kind of weak. so im interpreting this is it has x rockets, each rocket is a pretty powerful warhead, but you only get x of them, where x = rating (rl20 gives you 20 rockets). the rockets fire one at a time and you dont have to fire them all in one salvo, but there are no reloads when you are out. or it could just end up using ammo.

http://www.sarna.net...ket_Launcher_10

http://www.sarna.net...ket_Launcher_15

http://www.sarna.net...ket_Launcher_20

The damage per ton and crits on these things is insane. However, them being one time use per launcher is equally so. I'd imagine the only way they'd be worth even considering is if they can be equipped on any component besides the legs of any mech with the free tonnage and crit slots for it, and does not require an actual hard point for it. Otherwise, I see no real reason for it to exist.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 March 2017 - 09:48 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

What I did with Heavy Lasers is gave them 6/10/18 damage and 3/7/16 heat for S/M/L, but their ranges are each one hex shorter than their standard IS counterparts (so 120/240/480 vice the 150/270/510 I have the IS lasers set to) and with a max range of 1.75x instead of 2x. Duration is also slightly longer than the IS versions at 0.9/1/1.15 vice 0.75/0.82/1. Ghost heat for Mediums and Smalls is linked, including with all other Mediums and Smalls, at 6. Larges at 2, with other Larges.

I figure, the high heat and shorter range will take care of any issues. Only the larges seem overly problematic, but with a limit of two and generating more heat than an ERPPC, you will want a lot of DHS to cool them. At 8 tons for a pair, you can get a lot of heatsinks to do so and if you try to bring too many cERML to go with it, you will get burned...literally.

I think it's pretty successful at filling the role of "boosting starved 'Mechs" without being abusive, but feel free to point out anything I've overlooked.

WIP tables are linked on GDocs, for those who care to peruse.

Small I still have concerns about HSL VS ERSL and SPL
Poorer in terms of range, without much benefit
I'd almost consider 7 damage (matching the ERML), otherwise fair enough
Maybe even 4 heat, at that point (a big limiting factor, but still the same heat as isMLs)

Meds seem fair enough. Same heat is almost too good, but 240/420 range is a limit in itself
Burn time seems...more than fair
Same application as the Med Pulses, roughly
I could enjoy that


Very surprised by the HLL Dam/tick
1.56
That's almost as much as the isLPL, for over twice the heat, mind you
Is the range supposed to be 480, or 420? Minus 1 hex, LL being 450 last I checked. Or is that to account for the large cooldown+heat?


I'd try them out. I used my 6 ERML 29 DHS Loki again, and it is quite nice. I'm not sure if it's the sustainability, or the Range though. Hunch has trouble bringing more than 24 DHS, as a HML carrier. HMLs would increase his LOLpha from 42 to 60, a nice 30% improvement, but the optimal would drop to almost half.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 March 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 09:51 PM, said:

Small I still have concerns about HSL VS ERSL and SPL
Poorer in terms of range, without much benefit
I'd almost consider 7 damage (matching the ERML), otherwise fair enough
Maybe even 4 heat, at that point (a big limiting factor, but still the same heat as isMLs)

Meds seem fair enough. Same heat is almost too good, but 240/420 range is a limit in itself
Burn time seems...more than fair
Same application as the Med Pulses, roughly
I could enjoy that


Very surprised by the HLL Dam/tick
1.56
That's almost as much as the isLPL, for over twice the heat, mind you
Is the range supposed to be 480, or 420? Minus 1 hex, LL being 450 last I checked. Or is that to account for the large cooldown+heat?


I'd try them out. I used my 6 ERML 29 DHS Loki again, and it is quite nice. I'm not sure if it's the sustainability, or the Range though. Hunch has trouble bringing more than 24 DHS, as a HML carrier. HMLs would increase his LOLpha from 42 to 60, a nice 30% improvement, but the optimal would drop to almost half.

Range is -1 hex relative to the ranges I gave the IS standard lasers, not to TT values.

Duration on HML might be a skitsch too short, but with the entire HML class being difficult for my model to capture with its huge damage-to-weight ratio, I'm relying more on eyeballing the Impulse, DPS and HPS values and comparing it to my experiences playing the game. My next choice would probably be 1.15 seconds and, at the same time, bumping the HLL to 1.25. A burn of 1.25 seconds is my personal limit; I will not make any laser burn for longer. I would rather drop damage and tighten it up than go longer.

There is a breathing room problem at the small end of the laser sizes, made worse by the presence of Micro-class lasers. I think the primary benefit of the HSL is that it is a poor-man's cSPL. I could use them on my brawl MLX, for example, to get more room for either ammo or bigger launchers without having to strip vital armor. It's in-line with the intent of the entire Heavy-class of lasers, so I am not broken up about it at all.

I don't think the heat on HML is an issue. If you use them as intended, you get a manageable 28 heat for 40 damage and 4 tons of weapons. Even on my MLX (which happens to be a prime example for which type of 'Mech this would be good on), I get to pop up and blast 40 points into a target at a decent range for a Light, and that's going to be brutal on the target. Or I can do 30 damage for 21 heat - which is better than the 28 damage for 24 heat I get out of 4x cERML - and still have room for a pair of cSRM2, some ammo, and some DHS.

I'm really not interested in making Heavy Lasers useful when boated. If it sucks with six on an HBK-IIC-A, I consider that a success because that is not their intended niche and I'd rather not add yet another way for the Clans to dramatically out-gun the IS within every range bracket.

[Dino Might]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 March 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

So... do what us clanners do, and don't doubletap the UAC10 until you are willing to risk it? It still spits out twice the damage per trigger pull vs a UAC5, and retains the option to quadruple the damage output of an AC5. It's damage on tap. When you need it - usually. UAC rarely jam on the first doubletap. I mean, it happens, but not too often.

Do what a true clanner does. Put twice as many UACs on your boat as you normally would and doubletap forever. They won't all jam at once, unless the stars align.

Oh wait, spheros can't put that many UACs on a single chassis.

[Duke Nedo]

I hope they find some role that doesn't just involve huge lava hot lolphas, can't see anything good for the game coming out of that... but it sounded like that's what we're getting.

I like the idea of micros being laser MGs, that's a novel niche. The same mechanic wouldn't have to be restricted to short range weapons, would it?