339 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

And your eating ghost heat whole time. So my statement stands. As does my statement that if your using 4ERLL instead of 2ERPPC's your doing it wrong.

And you are doing a whole lot of not shooting because there is nothing to shoot at, so it only half stands.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

And your eating ghost heat whole time.

Which in a poke fight is acceptable because there isn't as much pressure to do sustained damage. DPS only really matters in receiving a push.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 15 March 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

So this computer...



Should be more powerful than this one?



I don't think so. Your logic doesn't make sense. Better tech equals smaller size, less components, less heat, moar powah!

Because who cares about gameplay balance.

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

Damage needs to get reduced or spread around more by those weapons. otherwise new weapons like heavy PPCs and heavy gauss are just going to make the problem even worse.

I suppose if you look at the damage in a complete vacuum without considering any other factors yeah those are going to be a problem.

Just completely ignore that for Heavy Gauss, you have to run a STD engine to use them, and that they are bombs that will explode your chest.

And Heavy PPCs are a mid range 10 ton 15 heat weapon, if they don't do 15 pin point damage, they aren't worth taking.

As far as cER LL go, you can get, what 10% duration out of the skill tree? No sense changing it now when any cERLL boat is just going to spend the ~15 SPs on laser duration.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

That's still better DPS, not lower alpha (44 vs 27).


Pretty sure I added that caveat to my statement.....


That's not the point because if you are using a 3 ERLL ENF-4R over a 2 ERPPC HBK-IIC-A you are doing it wrong.

It's not better DPS when you factor heat into the equation.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

It's not better DPS when you factor heat into the equation.

Worded that funny, was trying to say the ENF-4R has better DPS, but not higher alpha.

[SilentWolff]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

As far as cER LL go, you can get, what 10% duration out of the skill tree? No sense changing it now when any cERLL boat is just going to spend the ~15 SPs on laser duration.

That's assuming they don't remove or change it when they change the skill tree.

[Y E O N N E]

ITT: a whole bunch of comp nerds in violent agreement.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Which in a poke fight is acceptable because there isn't as much pressure to do sustained damage. DPS only really matters in receiving a push.

I totally disagree. More dps is more dps and if I can poke away and shoot consistently while your in the back cooling off that's a win for my team all the way around.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

What on Earth makes you think you would be belly rubbing with one or two effective weapons? Whether or not a weapon is good depends entirely on the surrounding environment, AKA whether or not it's better than the other options. If the few good options we have now are brought down, that makes them not only not good, but the other weapons better. That is, mathematically, how it works and this game is very much based on numbers.

Respectfully, if we buff all of the other weapons, you'll still be "belly rubbing" with one or two effective weapons because people like you and me and Quicksilver and Ultimax will always find that edge and exploit it. Thus, our view tends to be rather narrow unless we pull back and examine the whole system...which I do because I'm a sIut for game theory and I get more enjoyment out of that these days than playing the actual game (I am massively looking forward to new equipment though).

The reason I laughed in posting is not that I think it's absolute truth but because it was an old joke back when Large Pulse Lasers became viable sometime after they nerfed ppcs and the gauss rifle. It made it a much closer ranged game (a system, logically ending with belly rubbing mechs).

On the contrary, if the rule of thumb is to make weapons better in balance and not worse, even though they may not all be the best, the one thing for sure is that at they will all at least be more effective than before. If there is a problem with the rest, buff them.

We tried to suggest this before it all went down around 4 years ago, advocating that even other, shorter ranged weapons should be buffed to equal ppc's at the bottom of our post here: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__2535843

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[MacClearly]

No. Use Clan large lasers all of the time. They may not be meta but lots of stuff is not meta. Doesn't mean it is useless or that you can't make em work.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

I totally disagree. More dps is more dps and if I can poke away and shoot consistently while your in the back cooling off that's a win for my team all the way around.

More DPS but lower alpha = more times to expose to do the same amount of damage = more risk of taking unnecessary damage. The only thing that matters is making effective trades and denying terrain and if higher but less sustained alphas do that for me then I'm going to do it. Honestly the GHR-5P is a great example of that because of how little it can sustain (I believe the 2 ERPPC/Gauss Timby can do more sustained than it).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 11:24 AM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

More DPS but lower alpha = more times to expose to do the same amount of damage = more risk of taking unnecessary damage. The only thing that matters is making effective trades and denying terrain and if higher but less sustained alphas do that for me then I'm going to do it. Honestly the GHR-5P is a great example of that because of how little it can sustain (I believe the 2 ERPPC/Gauss Timby can do more sustained than it).

You expose yourself more with every shot of the Clan ERLL cause of the burn time. And while you may have a bigger alpha initially, you cant keep firing without overheating. Then the 3 ERLL Enforcer takes over on the higher alpha because it can keep shooting its 3 ERLL, while your stuck doing 2 and 2 to stay cool.

[DivineTomatoes]

Let's just remove large lasers, and every other weapon for that matter.

Let's replace them with squirt guns that do one damage so everything is fair and no one has anything to whine about.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

You expose yourself more with every shot of the Clan ERLL cause of the burn time.

Sure, but not by much without factoring in quirks, even firing 2 by 2 though the cERLL do a slight bit more than 3 iERLL in the same duration (again without quirks).

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

And while you may have a bigger alpha initially, you cant keep firing without overheating. Then the 3 ERLL Enforcer takes over on the higher alpha because it can keep shooting its 3 ERLL, while your stuck doing 2 and 2 to stay cool.

That may be so, but if it has done appreciable damage (which it should given you are asym poking in the ENF-4R which makes concentrating damage easier) then that higher DPS doesn't mean as much.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Sure, but not by much without factoring in quirks, even firing 2 by 2 though the cERLL do a slight bit more than 3 iERLL in the same duration (again without quirks).


That may be so, but if it has done appreciable damage (which it should given you are asym poking in the ENF-4R which makes concentrating damage easier) then that higher DPS doesn't mean as much.

All Im gonna do is point to comp matches and ask you if you ever see Clan ERLL being used. (the answer is they arent)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

All Im gonna do is point to comp matches and ask you if you ever see Clan ERLL being used. (the answer is they arent)

That's because the platforms for assaults and heavies were never as good as the Grasshopper and Battlemaster. That and the fact the ghost heat limit is at 2 for cERLL it limits the usefulness of stacking more cERLLs after 4. Let's not pretend that if you can fire more than 2 at a time that cERLL wouldn't be a lot more attractive on the heavy/assault side.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

That's because the platforms for assaults and heavies were never as good as the Grasshopper and Battlemaster. That and the fact the ghost heat limit is at 2 for cERLL it limits the usefulness of stacking more cERLLs after 4. Let's not pretend that if you can fire more than 2 at a time that cERLL wouldn't be a lot more attractive on the heavy/assault side.

Thanks for making my argument for me. Your right about the ghost heat. The only thing you have left out of the equation is the duration.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Thanks for making my argument for me. Your right about the ghost heat. The only thing you have left out of the equation is the duration.

I didn't make your argument for you. If there were a Battlemaster IIC or Grasshopper IIC would things be as cut and dry. Hell, if the GHR-5P and BLR-2C didn't have the huge structure bonuses would iERLL spam be as strong?

As for ghost heat, if the ghost heat limit was raised, the duration would be much less of an issue because you are doing similar damage per tick but just have a chance to do more damage if they expose themselves longer.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

I didn't make your argument for you. If there were a Battlemaster IIC or Grasshopper IIC would things be as cut and dry. Hell, if the GHR-5P and BLR-2C didn't have the huge structure bonuses would iERLL spam be as strong?

As for ghost heat, if the ghost heat limit was raised, the duration would be much less of an issue because you are doing similar damage per tick but just have a chance to do more damage if they expose themselves longer.

In the current implementation, yes they would be cut and dry, not as good. You know the Clan mechs would not come with the quirks, which are half the reason why those two IS mechs are used as ER boats, anyways. Even the IS ERLLas does not get much play outside of those two, and even less so the Clan variation.

If quirks are necessary to make a weapon system worth taking, it should just be baked into the base stats, IMO.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

I didn't make your argument for you. If there were a Battlemaster IIC or Grasshopper IIC would things be as cut and dry. Hell, if the GHR-5P and BLR-2C didn't have the huge structure bonuses would iERLL spam be as strong?

As for ghost heat, if the ghost heat limit was raised, the duration would be much less of an issue because you are doing similar damage per tick but just have a chance to do more damage if they expose themselves longer.

Do you not comprehend the ONLY reason people dont use Clan ERLL is because of the duration? The fact you can only use 2 without ghost heat only compounds the problem. Chassis are a non issue if the weapon was actually half decent.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 12:43 PM.