339 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Do you not comprehend the ONLY reason people dont use Clan ERLL is because of the duration?

Do you not realize that at 1 ton/slot lighter that cERLL still do nearly the same damage per tick as iERLL (0.136364 vs 0.1388889)? Without that ghost heat limit, the cERLL and iERLL would be making even trades if the cERLL doesn't get to use the rest of its duration.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Do you not realize that at 1 ton/slot lighter that cERLL still do nearly the same damage per tick as iERLL (0.136364 vs 0.1388889)? Without that ghost heat limit, the cERLL and iERLL would be making even trades if the cERLL doesn't get to use the rest of its duration.

Even trades? No. The ISERLL has a much better opportunity not to spread damage vs the Clan ERLL because of ...
D U R A T I O N

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Even trades? No. The ISERLL has a much better opportunity not to spread damage vs the Clan ERLL because of ...
D U R A T I O N

3 cERLL in 1.25 sec = 27.5 damage
3 iERLL in 1.25 sec = 27 damage

The math says otherwise.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:10 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

3 cERLL in 1.25 sec = 27.5 damage
3 iERLL in 1.25 sec = 27 damage

3x cERLLas is also spiking the ghost heat. Unless you're in a mech with 26+ DHS, that is not exactly well advised, and even then... my SNV with 31 of the suckers still can only do it four times, max, if I pause between salvos a little.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

ER Larges. When you shoot em, nothing seems to happen.

When you get shot by them, you get cored out instantly from the other side of the map.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

3x cERLLas is also spiking the ghost heat.

Read the context of this particular discussion please, this is about if the cERLL ghost heat limit was raised to match the iERLL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

3 cERLL in 1.25 sec = 27.5 damage
3 iERLL in 1.25 sec = 27 damage

The math says otherwise.

With ghost heat and spread damage, which you dont seem to comprehend.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

With ghost heat and spread damage, which you dont seem to comprehend.

I'm talking about if the ghost heat limit was raised, did that get lost somewhere or something.

And they spread the same way in 1.25 seconds.....

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

I'm talking about if the ghost heat limit was raised, did that get lost somewhere or something.

Evidently it did. *shrug*

However, even without ghost heat, you're also talking more overall heat, period, and you're paying 12 tons to the IS 10 tons for that.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

That's because the platforms for assaults and heavies were never as good as the Grasshopper and Battlemaster. That and the fact the ghost heat limit is at 2 for cERLL it limits the usefulness of stacking more cERLLs after 4. Let's not pretend that if you can fire more than 2 at a time that cERLL wouldn't be a lot more attractive on the heavy/assault side.

Well, that's only half the story. (Although HBR makes a decent CERLLAS boat - it's just not strong enough overall).

The reality is that in the Clan Heavy & Assault bracket there is almost always a superior loadout over pure CERLLAS - on the flipside for the IS there are almost no competitive Gauss+PPC mechs that can compete with NTG or TBR, and nothing at all competes with the Kodiak in the assault bracket.

I have my doubts about the GRH's place in the game now that the NTG is available for use in MRBC.

Edited by Ultimax, 17 March 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Evidently it did. *shrug*

Either way duration is not the main reason people don't use them, as I have pointed out if the ghost heat limit was raised to 3, then worst case they would trade evenly with iERLL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Either way duration is not the main reason people don't use them, as I have pointed out if the ghost heat limit was raised to 3, then worst case they would trade evenly with iERLL.

*with extra heat and 2 additional tons. One less crit, though. So there is that?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

*with extra heat and 2 additional tons.

65m extra range as well, but the extra heat is somewhat compensated by the extra weight you gain over iERLL and the fact that Clan ES/FF is just better (meaning more free tonnage to devote to DHS). All on top of the extra damage potential for those times where you CAN hold the beam for longer than 1.25s.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

65m extra range as well, but the extra heat is somewhat compensated by the extra weight you gain over iERLL and the fact that Clan ES/FF is just better (meaning more free tonnage to devote to DHS). All on top of the extra damage potential for those times where you CAN hold the beam for longer than 1.25s.

Simply stating it isn't exactly "equal," even with a bump to the ghost heat limits. I would not be against a GH bump to 3 for CERLLas, honestly. I'd actually welcome it, due to several mechs actually being designed to fire three at once (SNV-1 and Nova Cat Prime come to mind).

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Either way duration is not the main reason people don't use them, as I have pointed out if the ghost heat limit was raised to 3, then worst case they would trade evenly with iERLL.

Your wrong. Duration is a big reason why. They are unusable against good pilots with a 1.5 burn time. And the ghost heat argument is irrelevant, cause there is ghost heat.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

I didn't make your argument for you. If there were a Battlemaster IIC or Grasshopper IIC would things be as cut and dry. Hell, if the GHR-5P and BLR-2C didn't have the huge structure bonuses would iERLL spam be as strong?

As for ghost heat, if the ghost heat limit was raised, the duration would be much less of an issue because you are doing similar damage per tick but just have a chance to do more damage if they expose themselves longer.

I was struggling with the 2 Gauss, 1xerppc night gyr so I switched it to 2xerppc, 1 Gauss and some cermls. Did much better but realizes most my carrying was just the 2 erppcs, which I can do better/faster on HBK for 2 tons less.

FW, QP, doesn't matter. I still like the Gyr more as a 5xuac2 platform for FW and QP than the 4xuac2 HBK but neither is a build you'd see in comp (but glorious damage farming builds for stockpiling cash for incoming money sinks from skill tree and newtech).

The problem is that if the CERLL competes effectively against IS ERLL then it's going to be OK, given that it's lighter, smaller and the advantages of CXL means that a HBK IIC with boated CERLLs will fill the role that a 70 ton quirked GHR needs to fill in an IL mech.

Right now, absolutely IS ERLL boats (GHR, BLR specifically) fill a long range role that gives them an edge over Clan laser boats. Clans would need to take erppcs (which are harder to use effectively than hitscan lasers) to win trades at long range. This his an important piece of the IS/Clan balance puzzle right now and it is what makes the tonnage imbalance work to give a decent balance environment in lieu of PGI doing what they've failed/refused to do for years, balance the tech.

If CERLL was as good as IS ERLL on the couple of mech quirked for it then it would dominate because of better Clan platforms in lighter tonnage. It would also edge it the already marginal cerml and even the CLPL because 2 tons less means 3x CERLL > 2xclpl for the same weight with more range.

People keep trying to say longer cooldown would help but irrelevant with lasers because you're cooling several seconds just for heat anyway.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

And the ghost heat argument is irrelevant, cause there is ghost heat.

How is it irrelevant, lol?
If there was enough push for it, I bet PGI would be willing to up the limit (they honestly need to revisit many of the limits anyway).

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Your wrong. Duration is a big reason why. They are unusable against good pilots with a 1.5 burn time.

Ima pull a you, ready?

You're wrong. Ghost heat is a big reason why. They would trade evenly with iERLL (if it weren't for the ghost heat limit) in the worst case that you can only hold the beam on the target for 1.25 seconds.



Sure, does the duration suck? Yes, but there are more factors here since things don't get played in a vacuum.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

How is it irrelevant, lol?
If there was enough push for it, I bet PGI would be willing to up the limit (they honestly need to revisit many of the limits anyway).

It would help certainly, but the weapon is still subpar with that duration.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

Ima pull a you, ready?

You're wrong. Ghost heat is a big reason why. They would trade evenly with iERLL in the worst case that you can only hold the beam on the target for 1.25 seconds.

Yeah except youd be wrong, unlike me =D
And as I said, i think the duration of ISERLL needs reduced as well.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

It would help certainly, but the weapon is still subpar with that duration.

How, Ima need some math to back that up? You can't just say BUT ITS LONGER and be right, after all the cERML had a longer duration than both iLL and iML yet was considered miles better.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

How, Ima need some math to back that up? You can't just say BUT ITS LONGER and be right, after all the cERML had a longer duration than both iLL and iML yet was considered miles better.

Sure I can. Have you used the weapon lately? i dont need math to tell me that the weapon sucks. All you have to do is use it. And as I said, its not used in any COMP matchs. Theres a reason for that.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 01:34 PM.