339 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I play comp, do you? Hence the reason I brought it up. I know why, evidently theres alot of you on the forum that dont. I concede that ghost heat is also an issue btw.

How does bringing up and energy draw on the test server that they scrapped have any relevance to this conversation?

That you don't know who he is but say you play comp implies pretty much everything that needs said about why your arguments are bad.

[SilentWolff]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

That you don't know who he is but say you play comp implies pretty much everything that needs said about why your arguments are bad.

Not really. I havent seen him play in awhile and one isnt mutually exclusive to the other, but nice try.
Although to be fair, I havent played comp since MRBC last season and there are other leagues going right now. So its very possible our paths wouldnt cross.
As I recall the last time we met them in comp they beat us with a hacker on their team (moderate pudding), but I digress.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

The duration was unnecessarily increased, it should go back. Ghost heat was unnecessary as well, but duration is the main issue with large lasers as said previously, even with IS, with out heavy quirks for duration they are ineffective.

...didn't it start where it is now?
Or was it 1.4?

It was giga nerfed to 2 seconds and SINGLE LASER GHOST HEAT
PlznoPaul

But, launch stats had longer range and less heat than the current ones
And apparently +0.25 damage...
In other news, how bloody hard is it to find old weapon stats?!
How old is Smurfy's? How far back do his patch notes go? It only lists 4

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

That you don't know who he is but say you play comp implies pretty much everything that needs said about why your arguments are bad.

straw man from a FP scrub implies everything about why your arguments are always going to bad.

[Snazzy Dragon]

"Brawlers reign supreme"

bruh

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Because who cares about gameplay balance.

There's nothing to balance. The lore takes care of everything. New weapons this summer mean balance.

Lore is Battletech. End the Clan nerfing nonsense now.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 17 March 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

straw man from a FP scrub implies everything about why your arguments are always going to bad.

You don't have to play MRBC div A to know who the top teams are and top players are. You get bonus ad hominem points for accusing me of a strawman when making a strawman.

Not to mention how disingenuous the argument on why cerlls are not used in comp is. Is the suggestion that boated CERLLs should be buffed to be better than a erppc poptart? That out default needs to trade against the best quirked IS ERLL boats? That all lasers need a buff to accomidate buffing erlls without invalidating other lasers?

The math has been put up repeatedly and ignored. Then Silent is the one to play the comp card without knowing that Quicksilver is SJR. This argument has consisted of people listing the math related to the balance and the realities, which was discounted because "it feels bad". Then the comp card gets played against one of the few comp tier players to post in the brown sea.

This thread isn't a serious debate on the topic, it's just a reminder of why balance shouldn't be done based on whining alone.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

You don't have to play MRBC div A to know who the top teams are and top players are. You get bonus ad hominem points for accusing me of a strawman when making a strawman.

Not to mention how disingenuous the argument on why cerlls are not used in comp is. Is the suggestion that boated CERLLs should be buffed to be better than a erppc poptart? That out default needs to trade against the best quirked IS ERLL boats? That all lasers need a buff to accomidate buffing erlls without invalidating other lasers?

The math has been put up repeatedly and ignored. Then Silent is the one to play the comp card without knowing that Quicksilver is SJR. This argument has consisted of people listing the math related to the balance and the realities, which was discounted because "it feels bad". Then the comp card gets played against one of the few comp tier players to post in the brown sea.

This thread isn't a serious debate on the topic, it's just a reminder of why balance shouldn't be done based on whining alone.

Just no.

CERLL are not good even the people saying not to buff them agrees with at least that. Which is why they are being stupid and there is probably a good reason they have never balanced a mech game in their life and probably should refrain from armchairing it from now on.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Either way duration is not the main reason people don't use them, as I have pointed out if the ghost heat limit was raised to 3, then worst case they would trade evenly with iERLL.

For me, it's (duration) the primary reason, but the Ghost Heat limit is a factor.

Still, I would bet that 2 CERPPCs are still a preferable option to 3 CERLL if Ghost Heat was not a factor.

It's not like the (unquirked) IS ERPPC is being taken more over the IS ERLL, and the greatest usage of IS ERLL leans towards mechs that have duration quirks (Grasshopper-5P has ZERO heat gen quirks as a reference point). Mind you, the IS ERPPC is in a crappy place, but it's just a point of reference.

How often do you see (good) players using IS ERLL on mechs w/o quirks?

It's bad enough watching the old Raven-3L running less than effective pairs of 2 ERLL these days, but then again, I see terrible 2 CERLL ACH builds all the time too and these things continue to suck. I'm sure this isn't a great practical way of looking at these builds or the weapons themselves, but ERLL is not really a thing when left on its own merits. I get the practical fear of buffing/overbuffing it, but they are the least practical weapons when left as is.


It's also why balance discussions from some people (those just blame it strictly on quirks) have always been facepalmworthy.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 March 2017 - 04:43 PM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

You don't have to play MRBC div A to know who the top teams are and top players are. You get bonus ad hominem points for accusing me of a strawman when making a strawman.

Not to mention how disingenuous the argument on why cerlls are not used in comp is. Is the suggestion that boated CERLLs should be buffed to be better than a erppc poptart? That out default needs to trade against the best quirked IS ERLL boats? That all lasers need a buff to accomidate buffing erlls without invalidating other lasers?

The math has been put up repeatedly and ignored. Then Silent is the one to play the comp card without knowing that Quicksilver is SJR. This argument has consisted of people listing the math related to the balance and the realities, which was discounted because "it feels bad". Then the comp card gets played against one of the few comp tier players to post in the brown sea.

This thread isn't a serious debate on the topic, it's just a reminder of why balance shouldn't be done based on whining alone.

Only numbers shown were how close CL ER's damage output would be to IS if ghost heat was changed. That doesn't have anything to do with them both needing a duration reduction.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 17 March 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Just no.

CERLL are not good even the people saying not to buff them agrees with at least that. Which is why they are being stupid and there is probably a good reason they have never balanced a mech game in their life and probably should refrain from armchairing it from now on.

They need a fix, so do most weapons. You're describing the guy saying they should just get a burn duration decrease and that would be balanced because ghost heat.

If it gets a duration decrease it would need a damage decrease.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mister Blastman, on 17 March 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

There's nothing to balance. The lore takes care of everything. New weapons this summer mean balance.

Lore is Battletech. End the Clan nerfing nonsense now.

The lore "balanced" things by making Clanners intentionally hamstring themselves for "honor" and the Inner Sphere making use of combined arms and larger armies. We do not have anything remotely like that in this game

The new weapons don't provide balance when much of the new IS tech looks to be just inferior versions of existing Clan tech.

[SilentWolff]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

You don't have to play MRBC div A to know who the top teams are and top players are. You get bonus ad hominem points for accusing me of a strawman when making a strawman.

Not to mention how disingenuous the argument on why cerlls are not used in comp is. Is the suggestion that boated CERLLs should be buffed to be better than a erppc poptart? That out default needs to trade against the best quirked IS ERLL boats? That all lasers need a buff to accomidate buffing erlls without invalidating other lasers?

The math has been put up repeatedly and ignored. Then Silent is the one to play the comp card without knowing that Quicksilver is SJR. This argument has consisted of people listing the math related to the balance and the realities, which was discounted because "it feels bad". Then the comp card gets played against one of the few comp tier players to post in the brown sea.

This thread isn't a serious debate on the topic, it's just a reminder of why balance shouldn't be done based on whining alone.

Fact is your a non factor tier 2 CW player whos opinion is less than relevant.
If you remember, SJR didnt play MRBC under the SJR tag last season number 1, and number 2, he cant be that great of player or I would of remembered him. And has he come back in here and defended his postions? No, because they dont run Clan ERLL and he knows that.

No one is talking "boating" Clan ERLL. Thats your fantasy argument. Anyone in the comp scene will all say the same thing. You can argue about the "math" all you want, doesnt change the fact that ERLL are not in a good place right now. Ive said this 10 times in this thread and ill say it 100 more if needed. Point out the top teams running clan ERLL in the comp scene. Go ahead, name them. Show me vids of people being effective against top tier players with Clan ERLL.
You cant, and thats all the evidence anyone needs to know that the weapon type needs to be reevaluated.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

They need a fix, so do most weapons. You're describing the guy saying they should just get a burn duration decrease and that would be balanced because ghost heat.

If it gets a duration decrease it would need a damage decrease.

Why would damage need to be reduced?

[MischiefSC]

You reduce duration and you increase damage/tic. You also edge out regular lasers for both techs. If the CERLL had a better duration than CLPL, or even comparable, why pay 2 extra tons?

So are we talking buffing all lasers?

A bunch of weapons are imbalanced. If you buff erlls you effectively nerf clpls, cermls, lls, plus PPCs.

CERPPCs will still be more popular in comp because poptart vs dot.

You could extend range on erlls out past even erppc range but when we had that it had its own meta problems.

Erlls suck because erlls sucking is better than lpls/cerml/LLs sucking.

WE already tried that meta. All game for changes to make more weapons viable. Changing one weapon to make it viable but several others less viable is stupid and why you make changes based on math, not "but I want shorter burn on my cerlls".

[MischiefSC]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Fact is your a non factor tier 2 CW player whos opinion is less than relevant.
If you remember, SJR didnt play MRBC under the SJR tag last season number 1, and number 2, he cant be that great of player or I would of remembered him. And has he come back in here and defended his postions? No, because they dont run Clan ERLL and he knows that.

No one is talking "boating" Clan ERLL. Thats your fantasy argument. Anyone in the comp scene will all say the same thing. You can argue about the "math" all you want, doesnt change the fact that ERLL are not in a good place right now. Ive said this 10 times in this thread and ill say it 100 more if needed. Point out the top teams running clan ERLL in the comp scene. Go ahead, name them. Show me vids of people being effective against top tier players with Clan ERLL.
You cant, and thats all the evidence anyone needs to know that the weapon type needs to be reevaluated.

I get that you are trying to pretend that showing up to comp matches in one season gives your opinion some sort of relevance. You're the one who tried to to make that a factor, and did it to a player ehos probably blown off more comp matches than you've played and has been a solid part of every actual useful discussion on balance for years.

Math is math. I get that you don't like that but you've been shown wrong, repeatedly, which you've ignored. Cerlls not being used in comp has nothing, at all, in any way, to do with how they fit into overall game balance and why. CERPPCs are a better Clan long range energy option because poptart > dot. As was pointed out. Buff IS AC10 to ERPPC speed/range, what happens?

As to the rest of why you're wrong, touched on it in the above post. Balance doesn't exist in a vacuum. We would all love every weapon to be equally viable. Not a new topic. Reducing burn time and bumping ghost heat on cerlls is a stupid idea, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Same damage/tic already.

1/2 size endo + 33% smaller DHS + 1 less slot, 1 less ton + CXL more than offset the 2 extra heat.

Less burn = invalidate CLPL, cerml, is LL.

Oh, what comp teams use LRMs? Is small laser builds? Large lasers? AC10? LBX? Bad argument is bad. Lots of weapons need balanced. They need balanced in context of existing weapons. Even if they were all balanced you would still only see a few in comp.

[Wing 0]

I understand where SilentWolf is going with this and its understandable. I.S players have been getting way too much leeway these past few months and PGI and NGNG really need to play against comp teams on a regular basis or fk off and go back to the drawing board. First it was the bonehead calls to nerf CERLs, then comes the 20 extra tons to I.S in faction play,then I.S gets a major armor buffs, Then the Clan UAC's got nerfed by boneheads who don't know jack about how to combat the Kodiak3's that specifically uses them. The list can go on. Now were back at the point where this so called "balance" is back to being fked again and were not even close. Now these latest patch notes made it evident that PGI has became very incompetent in knowing wtf are they doing wrong.

New weapons are going to make things worse in july + the mechs too so no surprise there.

Edited by Wing 0, 17 March 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[SilentWolff]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

I get that you are trying to pretend that showing up to comp matches in one season gives your opinion some sort of relevance. You're the one who tried to to make that a factor, and did it to a player ehos probably blown off more comp matches than you've played and has been a solid part of every actual useful discussion on balance for years.

Math is math. I get that you don't like that but you've been shown wrong, repeatedly, which you've ignored. Cerlls not being used in comp has nothing, at all, in any way, to do with how they fit into overall game balance and why. CERPPCs are a better Clan long range energy option because poptart > dot. As was pointed out. Buff IS AC10 to ERPPC speed/range, what happens?

As to the rest of why you're wrong, touched on it in the above post. Balance doesn't exist in a vacuum. We would all love every weapon to be equally viable. Not a new topic. Reducing burn time and bumping ghost heat on cerlls is a stupid idea, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Same damage/tic already.

1/2 size endo + 33% smaller DHS + 1 less slot, 1 less ton + CXL more than offset the 2 extra heat.

Less burn = invalidate CLPL, cerml, is LL.

Oh, what comp teams use LRMs? Is small laser builds? Large lasers? AC10? LBX? Bad argument is bad. Lots of weapons need balanced. They need balanced in context of existing weapons. Even if they were all balanced you would still only see a few in comp.

Your pretty comical bro. I been playing comp mech since MW3. Ive run units that won leagues and I have been playing comp in MWO since it first came out.
This thread is dedicated to ERLL, did you miss the thread title? You can go talk about all the other weapons in another thread.
And Ive already proved my point. As I said, your a tier 2 scrub who really doesnt understand top tier gameplay. So Im done trying to talk any sense into you.

[MischiefSC]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

Your pretty comical bro. I been playing comp mech since MW3. Ive run units that won leagues and I have been playing comp in MWO since it first came out.
This thread is dedicated to ERLL, did you miss the thread title? You can go talk about all the other weapons in another thread.
And Ive already proved my point. As I said, your a tier 2 scrub who really doesnt understand top tier gameplay. So Im done trying to talk any sense into you.

So you are incapable of understanding that trying to balance 1 weapon in a vacuum is incredibly stupid. How long you've played is irrelevant if your idea and inability to understand that balance is holistic is made of pure fail.

Fortunately there's no way this idea is going anywhere but it's good to have examples of bad, short-sighted ideas about balance changes to point out why some things work like they are. Apparently if we don't regularly go over the metrics of some weapons some nitwit will suggest something dense like this.

Hey, buddy, glad you're proud of your QP xp bar though. Also big wow on having played MW3. Nobody else here has that depth of experience I'm sure! Pretending that is relevant game balance though isn't fooling anyone. Bad and baseless arguments are bad and baselss. Extra lols for wanting to just look at erlls without looking at how that impacts overall weapon balance.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So are we talking buffing all lasers?

A bunch of weapons are imbalanced. If you buff erlls you effectively nerf clpls, cermls, lls, plus PPC

Erlls suck because erlls sucking is better than lpls/cerml/LLs sucking.

If the introduction of Clan ER Large lasers did all that then yes, the others would need to be looked at. We are saying they were by no means op and should be returned to original drawn up values.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 06:14 PM.